ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[comicwiz]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:22 PM, Bo1983 said:

Are you the scammer are just worried about your books you can’t read?

What?

[Bo1983]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:38 AM, skybolt said:

Thinking about all the logistics involved with this scam, I find it hard to believe that the seller is the only person involved in this scheme. Yes, this person is likely coordinating this stuff with CGC and selling the slabs, but I bet he has a couple of guys in the back room doing all the grunt work. There's no way this person could do all this at once without making mistakes earlier.

Inside job!

[Changer]

More eyes on this the better , glad there are forums and instagram and you tubers discussing this . Let light shine in every nook and cranny,people are out thousands , tens of thousands of dollars.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Changer

[namisgr]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:14 PM, Stefan_W said:

This is an important point to remember for those wondering why CGC has not come out with a statement yet. Fact finding comes first so the statement is informed, legal comes next so you know what you can say, and an official statement may follow after all of that. 

Fact finding wasn't an emphasis for CGC back in the day when they gave a high grade comic I'd bought off the rack, and so could guarantee with certainty was never manipulated, a purple/trimmed label.  I'd be surprised if it's become one since then.  Instead, I strongly suspect their lack of response is due to the holiday season, and a number of higher ups being already on vacation.

Edited December 22, 2023 by namisgr

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:41 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

Literally your explanation just reinforced what I felt you meant 👍. You didn’t change my mind, still feel the elitism in your meaning and tone. No reason to persist, we would not be friends in the world of comics.

The idea that actually reading comics is somehow "elitist" is the stupidest thing I have ever read on this board. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Happy Noodle Boy

[skybolt]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:31 AM, namisgr said:

Fact finding wasn't an emphasis for CGC back in the day when they gave a high grade comic I'd bought off the rack a purple/trimmed label.  I'd be surprised if it's become one since then.  Instead, I strongly suspect their lack of response is due to the holiday season, and a number of higher ups being already on vacation.

I completely get that, and the last thing I want is for CGC to say something now and then backtrack when more info comes out. With that being said, even if the higher ups are on vacation, they could text an employee and ask them to post on this forum that CGC is getting to the bottom of this, but will need more time to gather all the facts.

Edited December 22, 2023 by skybolt

[Stefan_W]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:31 PM, namisgr said:

Fact finding wasn't an emphasis for CGC back in the day when they gave a high grade comic I'd bought off the rack, and so could guarantee with certainty was never manipulated, a purple/trimmed label.  I'd be surprised if it's become one since then.  Instead, I strongly suspect their lack of response is due to the holiday season, and a number of higher ups being already on vacation.

Cool. This is a discussion board and everyone can freely exercise their right to express an opinion that is completely wrong.  

Edited December 22, 2023 by Stefan_W

[MatterEaterLad]

Has @CGC Mike said anything yet?

NOT blaming Mike for the silence. He's one of the best mods we've ever had. I'm sure he's well aware of what's going on but not allowed to say at the moment (unless I missed it). Who knows, there may be an active police investigation going on and they don't want to show their hand before they nab the guy(s) laundering books. They could be a big dealer for all we know, an auction house employee, etc.

[namisgr]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:10 PM, sledgehammer said:

We have NO idea how this actually went down yet.

Well, we have no certainty, but some things can be inferred.  For instance, knowing how easily the labels could be lifted intact from the older versions of the inner wells, it is very plausible that the perpetrator used label switching as part of the scheme to favorably manipulate the grades of previously graded books upon resubmission for reholdering.  We also know that since comics are only very rarely put to regrading when submitted for reholdering, there's another plausible piece of the method.  And we have irrefutable visual evidence that books of lower grade, missing coupons or entire pages, etc. have been used in the scheme to get higher grades, inappropriate label notes, and unrestored blue labels.

I haven't been able to read this long thread in its entirety, so there are almost certainly other facets of the grading scheme that have been uncovered or suggested as plausible that I've overlooked here.

Edited December 22, 2023 by namisgr

[Happy Noodle Boy]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:38 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

Has @CGC Mike said anything yet?

NOT blaming Mike for the silence. He's one of the best mods we've ever had. I'm sure he's well aware of what's going on but not allowed to say at the moment (unless I missed it). Who knows, there may be an active police investigation going on and they don't want to show their hand before they nab the guy(s) laundering books. They could be a big dealer for all we know, an auction house employee, etc.

Yeah, this is a big, complex, tangled-up mess. All I would realistically expect from CGC now is "We're looking into it." Especially since it's the holidays. It will just take time.

[sledgehammer]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:39 AM, namisgr said:

On 12/22/2023 at 11:10 AM, sledgehammer said:

We have NO idea how this actually went down yet.

Well, we have no certainty, but some things can be inferred.

Sure, we've been inferring a lot since last weekend. When I said actually, I mean we just don't know for sure.

[Cat]

On 12/23/2023 at 2:41 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

Literally your explanation just reinforced what I felt you meant 👍. You didn’t change my mind, still feel the elitism in your meaning and tone. No reason to persist, we would not be friends in the world of comics.

Damn elite comic readers. 

Them and their good looks, muscles out the wazoo, tanned skin, why I oughtta.....

[JC25427N]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:32 PM, Happy Noodle Boy said:

The idea that actually reading comics is somehow "elitist" is the stupidest thing I have ever read on this board. 

The fact that people are still saying this is baffling to me. You can read a comic in a thousand ways and still have a copy of it in a slab

It's stupid to believe everyone who likes slabs doesn't read comics

Edited December 22, 2023 by JC25427N

[agamoto]

On 12/22/2023 at 6:36 AM, comicwiz said:

100%. I really didn't give a mess about the likes, it's the same pattern on all soc med. What bothered me even more is that he was using the analysis from these forums and taking credit for it. Even yesterday, when I posted those screenshots, I asked for someone to post a clearer image than what I was able to pull out from WP. It took several members here to both provide images, and better juxtapoisitioning for comparison. There were still people chiming-in saying they weren't the same book, and because of all of us doing our part, it was clear as day they were the same. At that point, it's ours. 

However, when I see him using perspectives shared on here of how this is possibly happening, that's the last straw. And him responding that he didn't delete my comments is pure bs when I keep showing he's doing it with screenshots of my replies that keep getting removed. The latest speaks on why it ultimately should be called out for what it is:

 

I didn't believe he'd do such a thing just for the clout... Until I saw he produced a friggin' youtube short summarizing his amazing discoveries. He definitely wants to draw attention to himself for that. 

[MatterEaterLad]

Don't even mention this on the FB CGC fan page. I just got the ban hammer for asking about it.

What kind of admin would not want a forum of 37,000 members to NOT know this is happening, especially when people were scammed as recently as this week? 

[Iconic1s]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:59 AM, LDarkseid1 said:

By your standard, every grading company should be out of business. If this can happen to CGC, it could have happened to the other grading companies and there isn’t anything to say it hasn’t. To want this to be the end of CGC or any grading company because one person or however many defrauded them is the bummer imop. A lot of people have their livelihoods in CGC. So to want CGC to fail is to want them to fail, friends you may have in this community who have potentially tens or hundreds of thousands in comics or more, now possibly worth a fraction of those amounts if that were to happen. People commit fraud all the time, doesn’t mean a company should close or anyone “should” want them to as you implied. How often do we hear visa or a credit card company experienced a data breach releasing hundreds of thousands of people’s personal info. Isn’t it their job, if not one of the tenants of their company to securely protect our private information? Do we call for visa or all credit card companies to go under because of scammers hacking the company? No. So CGC clearly has some due diligence to do and clean house if need be. There obviously needs to be repercussions for this, and the onus of that should be on the person or persons who perpetrated the scheme, not CGC. The end result for CGC should be a come to Jesus moment where they drastically improve their product and brand. It would also obviously be ideal if the people who purchased books from this huckster were made whole, however possible. I think that should come in the form of a lawsuit against the fraudster. He’s obviously done well for himself.

I was not saying I WANT it to be the end for them, just that what is the point in ever trusting them again.  It’s been obvious that their main concern has been profits for a while now (not fixing QC issues, the whole acetate thing, and I’m sure there is a lot more).  And now, they let this get by them for who knows how long??  They turned themselves into nothing more than a gimmick at this point.  Look at their social media presence (it’s a joke used to generate business when they honestly don’t have to)..  all the in-house private signings, questionable grading, decreasing the number of graders on books.  It’s all about volume/money, not the actual integrity of their product anymore.

Going back to that 5.5 IH 181 that might be married… it may have just been cracked and resubbed for all anyone knows… maybe they don’t even count pages anymore, maybe they just look at something like a MVS missing, or other common qualifiers and blast on to the next book… who knows at this point and why should anything they say about it be trusted.

I really feel bad for the collectors that have gone out of their way to possess the types of books that have been the target of this!  At this point no one really will know what’s in ANY slab they got from anything other than their own sub, or from someone they absolutely trust that also subbed the book themselves.  Any of these books that changed hands more than once, while slabbed is suspect!

Personally, I’m glad I’m just a little rinky dink ‘90’s guy… not much profit in doing this with many of my books.

Again, I don’t want any grading company to go out of business, especially CGC (I’ve got books there now and will keep submitting) but honestly, they did us all wrong by not being better, and it should be it for them.

[comicwiz]

Can someone post a clear front and back pic of the following s/n: 1309487005

I'm trying to see if it matches with another of these

I should point out, I have a pic of it off Worthpoint, but it's too blurry to compare

Edited December 22, 2023 by comicwiz

[grendel013]

I started to read through this thread but it got very long very quickly. Instead of trying to slip and already lower grade inner well into a carefully opened higher grade outer well, is it possible the fraudster just has access to brand new CGC outer wells and the sonic welder thingy? Maybe I'm not knowledgeable enough about the encapsulation process but if I had a case of new outer wells (which I've seen available in comic shops) and the right tool to seal, couldn't I be swapping books all day?

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 12/22/2023 at 12:07 PM, MatterEaterLad said:

Don't even mention this on the FB CGC fan page. I just got the ban hammer for asking about it.

What kind of admin would not want a forum of 37,000 members to NOT know this is happening, especially when people were scammed as recently as this week? 

Well that tells you 2 things: 1. They are acutely aware of the scandal. 2. They care not one bit what goes on here on the boards because it’s a relatively small audience of geezers they don’t care about that won’t go viral in any meaningful way. But now that they are trying to put out the fire on social media well now they are probably going to get reamed even worse for it. 

[skybolt]

On 12/22/2023 at 11:08 AM, paqart said:

My potentially totally wrong guess:

1. The bad guy is scamming comics, cards, and coins
2. The bad guy owns equipment needed to seal slabs of various sizes, at the least
3. The bad guy is doing this fraud as a business. Meaning, it isn't a side scam. It's all he does.
4. His minimal annual investment is $100k. Meaning, that is his cost of doing "business."
5. To be profitable, he has to churn $200k in sales every year.
6. The comics we've seen so far are in the $5k-$15k value range. Average to $10k each. He's doing 20+ comics a year
7. He does not sell the raw 9.8's he needs to get slabs, or not often. This is a fixed cost that is not recouped, but rolled over for more fraud.
8. The bad guy has a stable of targeted issues he deals in, and not much else
9. The bad guy cannot afford to have his cash flow compromised by slow TATS. Therefore, he has multiple 9.8's of the same issues in his stable, so that he has multiple submissions in the queue at all times.
10. The bad guy has designed his scam so that he receive new fraudulently encapsulated comics every 30-60 days. If not, he goes broke.

That's a good list. With respect to No's 4 and 5, my gut tells me those numbers are a lot higher. For example, in addition to Ebay, this guy was also selling stuff on other forums. 99newsstand also mentioned that he's seen him at sales shows showcasing his stuff during the comic book boom. I imagine he was getting triple the price at that time. This guy probably also sold books to a lot of dealers without that info making it into Go Collect or GPA. I'm really scared that his submissions could be somewhere in the 5k to 10k range over the past 12 years, which will likely lead to your other point that multiple people are involved in the process.

Edited December 22, 2023 by skybolt