ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[EastEnd1]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:20 AM, COMICLINK said:

The only way the list of books to watch out for would not dwindle down is if CGC does not update it. 

ComicLink already has some books sent out to them to review/recertify with a different cert number, so after review they will no longer be books to watch out for, no longer books on this "recall list", regardless of whether or not they remain in the same condition.  We have only just begun this process.  It will obviously take time and effort, but will be getting in touch with all our clients that ever purchased one of these books, and this will happen soon.  Additionally, if they have resold books, we will advise them to inform the party they sold the book to and encourage them to go through the review process.   That will be good for both the most recent owner and the market as a whole.  If CGC is footing the bill, no reason not to do it.

Best way for CGC to handle the list now requires proactive updating by CGC.  The original list should stay up, but CGC should revise status for books that were resolved. Simply marking all reviewed and recertified books with a new cert number as "recertified" would mean that the certification number in question no longer exists, so no one need worry about it. 

 

Thanks Josh.  Does the list include EVERY book consigned by the scammer to ComicLink, or just the ones that went thru a CGC reholder/ME process?  I ask because it's been surmised that the scammer is able to open and reseal holders WITHOUT creating an obvious defect. So every graded book he's touched is suspect, unless that possibility is wrong.

[wombat]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:56 AM, COMICLINK said:

 

 

No, this was not an inside job.

How do you know this?

[GDN]

On 1/4/2024 at 7:12 AM, sledgehammer said:

Well said. However, it may be really tough to nail it down to the one person suspected.

I'm pretty sure that it all about "who" is sending these listed books in.

Here is the AF 15, as it is now.  https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/1589872002/

I'm going to send Mike some screen captures, from 2020, that show an AF 15  6.5 yellow, with a price tag on it, in a different yellow holder than the custom label shown in the grading notes.

The site that was captured on appears to be incredibly relevant.

Clearly both note the same "Stan Lee 86" notation.

Both books have the same 2-3 major spine dings, especially the one close to "MAY"

The cert # is not legible enough, but all things considered, there are telling signs that they are the same, still, after the custom label.

Both books are clearly not autographed on the front cover

So the big question is, why was it sent in for a reholder/custom label, if the cert # is in fact still the same??

There 3 times a 6,5 has been graded yellow. Only 5 other higher graded books have been graded yellow.

Maybe the AF15 is for his personal collection and he wanted a new label??  Maybe that AF15 is not a scam book?  A little present to himself purchased with some of his scamming profits. 

[jokersup]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:12 AM, sledgehammer said:

Well said. However, it may be really tough to nail it down to the one person suspected.

I'm pretty sure that it's all about "who" is sending these listed books in.

Here is the AF 15, as it is now.  https://www.cgccomics.com/certlookup/1589872002/

I'm going to send Mike some screen captures, from 2020, that show an AF 15  6.5 yellow, with a price tag on it, in a different yellow holder than the custom label shown in the grading notes.

The site that was captured on appears to be incredibly relevant.

Clearly both note the same "Stan Lee 86" notation.

Both books have the same 2-3 major spine dings, especially the one close to "MAY"

The cert # is not legible enough, but all things considered, there are telling signs that they are the same, still, after the custom label.

Both books are clearly not autographed on the front cover

So the big question is, why was it sent in for a reholder/custom label, if the cert # is in fact still the same??

There are 3 times a 6,5 has been graded yellow. Only 5 other higher graded books have been graded yellow.

Found a good picture

[sledgehammer]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:43 AM, GDN said:

Maybe the AF15 is for his personal collection and he wanted a new label??  Maybe that AF15 is not a scam book?  A little present to himself purchased with some of his scamming profits. 

Totally possible, but still apparently on CGC's list.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:48 AM, sledgehammer said:

Totally possible, but still apparently on CGC's list.

It’s on the list because it was reholdered.

[sledgehammer]

Same color loss by the building in both books. So my thought it was cleaned/pressed before the new custom label doesn't seem as feasible.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:58 AM, sledgehammer said:

Same color loss by the building in both books. So my thought it was cleaned/pressed before the new custom label doesn't seem as feasible.

Looks to be the same book.  No swap. No problem. No?

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:03 AM, CGC Mike said:

I have added the entire announcement to the pinned thread in comics general, and the announcement thread.

Cool.  Thanks Mike.

[Sigur Ros]

On 1/4/2024 at 9:04 AM, wiparker824 said:

How could possible know this with certainty unless you’ve been let in on their internal investigation which I’m sure included an investigation of the employees who handled the books and may still be ongoing?

Or.....they are the culprit.

[jsilverjanet]

On 1/3/2024 at 4:46 PM, NewWorldOrder said:

CGC has updated the status on their official statement on social media

350 book list that are for eligible for review.

 

https://www.cgccomics.com/news/article/12454/

@CAHokie you guess the number correctly

please let me know where to send your prize

[wiparker824]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:43 AM, GDN said:

Maybe the AF15 is for his personal collection and he wanted a new label??  Maybe that AF15 is not a scam book?  A little present to himself purchased with some of his scamming profits. 

Seems likely, there doesn’t appear to have been any record of it being sold. It was signed in AZ at one of Stan’s last signings before he passed. And AZ is one of the known locations of the scammer. I’m guessing they had it signed for PC and wanted the custom label that came out later so they sent in for reholder/custom label. There’s really no monetary benefit to just get a custom label which is all that appears different in this particular case.

[drotto]

On 1/4/2024 at 10:02 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I'm still waiting on an answer as to how the 350 can be the total number of books that are suspect if this guys has sold a great many more books over the course of 15 years on eBay. Not necessarily every book that was swapped went back to CGC, some may have been sold or traded off into the wild. Every serial number of a CGC he every sold is just as questionable as the ones that he submitted to CGC. If CGC didn't catch the swap, then the average customer may not either. Blue label for Blue label ASM#300's could have been swapped from 9.8 to 9.4.  Then He sent legit raw 9.8 to CGC to get another slab to swap with another 9.4.  That would be the simplest scheme given the high number of the same books to keep a pipeline going and not risk being caught by CGC every time.

I suspect these are all the books linked to one account or individual.  We do not know if they are investigating multiple accounts, or if multiple individuals are doing the same scam.  

 

I would like to know if they are trying to broaden this to other accounts.  If so, the affected number of books could grow. That is very important at this point.  It seems like CGC is really leaning into the one bad egg senerio, and is unconvinced or unwilling to expand it.

[Get Marwood & I]

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/531180-2024-cgc-grading-contest-season-3-winter-edition-9-sign-up-thread/#comments

 

[CAHokie]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:12 AM, jsilverjanet said:

@CAHokie you guess the number correctly

please let me know where to send your prize

 

There was no other number it could be!

[LordRahl]

On 1/4/2024 at 5:35 AM, pdags said:

This is tricky...  If I've been scammed the only * evidence * I have is the book/slab itself.  If I send that into CGC for review and possibly a re-holder, I no longer have the evidence.  CGC needs to inform people that they are working with the FBI, otherwise they may tampering with individual's evidence and ability to personally prosecute.  

I don't know what legal advice CGC is getting, but individuals of very high valued books should consider getting their own legal consultation before shipping their books off to CGC; who may or may not be working with the FBI (or equivalent).

IMHO, these books should be sent first and foremost to the FBI for criminal prosecution, not CGC for re-holdering.

Problem with this approach is you can kiss your book and money goodbye for at least the next several years if not forever while the FBI figures out IF they want to investigate/prosecute and then for that prosecution to play out. If you have ever dealt with the federal government, you know this is well let's just say... a lengthy process. I don't see too many people signing up for that. 

[Matt1982]

On 1/4/2024 at 8:02 AM, MyNameIsLegion said:

I'm still waiting on an answer as to how the 350 can be the total number of books that are suspect if this guys has sold a great many more books over the course of 15 years on eBay. Not necessarily every book that was swapped went back to CGC, some may have been sold or traded off into the wild. Every serial number of a CGC he every sold is just as questionable as the ones that he submitted to CGC. If CGC didn't catch the swap, then the average customer may not either. Blue label for Blue label ASM#300's could have been swapped from 9.8 to 9.4.  Then He sent legit raw 9.8 to CGC to get another slab to swap with another 9.4.  That would be the simplest scheme given the high number of the same books to keep a pipeline going and not risk being caught by CGC every time.

350 is not the total number of suspect books, but it’s the only number of books CGC will report publicly. CGC won’t report books where the perp swapped then sold books without re-holdering, because they weren’t a part of that and can’t possibly know what books were cracked/swapped. In that case the wrongful conduct happened outside their chain of custody. Where the books were re-holdered, CGC was used (or it’s employed participated - we don’t know) as part of the scheme, so those are the only books CGC will report.

I would expect the FBI will prosecute, and if the perp pleads guilty they will make him/her/them report the entirety of the scheme, and that’s when we’ll get an expanded list.

[Dr. Balls]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm excited to see the crazy bidding on the first "Counterfeit CGC Slab" that pops up on Ebay. Can you imagine a Counterfeit Acetate Ultimate Fallout #4?

[MyNameIsLegion]

On 1/4/2024 at 11:05 AM, Dr. Balls said:

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm excited to see the crazy bidding on the first "Counterfeit CGC Slab" that pops up on Ebay. Can you imagine a Counterfeit Acetate Ultimate Fallout #4?

Maybe they will make a custom label for it 🤔

[LordRahl]

On 1/4/2024 at 6:34 AM, pdags said:

Who knows.   A better course of action would simply be to say, "Please send these books back.  We're working with the FBI to review each and every book for fraud.  After the FBI have reviewed it we'll review and/or re-holder the book, etc."

 

You clearly have never worked with the federal government. What you are suggesting would be an absolute train wreck. Your books would be in limbo for years with no compensation. No one is going to do that. CGC would be foolish to try that as they would get skewered by all of the owners of these books.