ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[CGC Mike]

Update: March 18, 2024

The Certified Collectibles Group® (CCG®), which includes Certified Guaranty Company® (CGC®), has shared another update on the comic book holder tampering incident.

CCG filed a lawsuit against the individual and his partner who tampered with CGC comic book holders to replace higher-graded comic books with lower-graded comic books of the same type. On February 13, 2024, we obtained a Preliminary Injunction Order prohibiting the defendant from doing anything related to CGC-graded books, pending the final hearing and ruling in the case. The lawsuit is working its way through the court system, and we will provide an update when there are any significant developments in the case.

In addition to our ongoing efforts to prosecute this fraud, we are continuing to make improvements to the security of our encapsulation process. Already, many customers have noticed a significantly stronger seal on our holders. We are currently testing further improvements to the seal along with high-tech solutions that will enhance the security of our process and holders. Watch for updates in the coming months about the specific improvements that we are making.

We sincerely apologize for the delays in compensating customers who have made claims. CCG is working as expeditiously as possible to set up a process to address each and every customer who has made a claim. We are committed to making everyone impacted by this incident whole, even if it takes longer than we had hoped.

We have received some questions about the list of potentially impacted books that we released on January 3, 2024, and have added some new FAQs below:

What does it mean if a certification number has been struck through?

Any certification number that is struck through has been reviewed by the CGC grading team. A strikethrough does not mean that the holder has been tampered with or not tampered with; it only means that the book has been reviewed.

Why do some of these books have a new grade date in Verify CGC Certification?

If a book has a new grade date in Verify CGC Certification, it has been reviewed. This grade date simply means that the grading record for that certification number was updated in some way on that date.

Why do some of these books not have a grade at all in Verify CGC Certification?

If a book’s grade is vacated, the book is currently at CGC.

What happens with the books after CGC completes its review?

If CGC determines that a book has been tampered with, the book will be held by CGC pending the outcome of the insurance claim and legal process. If CGC determines that the book has not been tampered with, the old certification number will be deleted, the book will be assigned a new certification number, encapsulated, and returned to the submitter.

Will CGC share the results of its reviews?

Due to the ongoing investigation and legal process, we will not be providing a list of the final determinations of these books at this time. We will reassess once this process is complete.

How often is this list being updated?

This list is being updated weekly; however, it is updated manually, so there may be a slight difference in timing between updates that appear in Verify CGC Certification and updates that appear on this list.

What if I still have questions?

If you have any questions or concerns, please reach out to us at ReportFraud@CollectiblesGroup.com. We appreciate your patience as we work to resolve this incident.

[Tnexus]

 

Quote

 

What happens with the books after CGC completes its review?

If CGC determines that a book has been tampered with, the book will be held by CGC pending the outcome of the insurance claim and legal process. If CGC determines that the book has not been tampered with, the old certification number will be deleted, the book will be assigned a new certification number, encapsulated, and returned to the submitter.

 

Sounds like people may be in for a long wait if the court case drags out.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 3/18/2024 at 8:51 PM, Tnexus said:

 

Sounds like people may be in for a long wait if the court case drags out.

Lol rather than get tongue twisted myself, I try to only read, but I've been waiting till my statement "still a year out" looked to be closer in reality, "it ain't!" 

 

 

[DougC]

Depending on speed of the courts this could take multiples of years if the defendants fight it or another 8-10 months if they take a plea and cooperate.

Given that CGC is holding these books and not communicating directly with the parties involved it is always advisable to have a consolation with council. It really baffles me why a CGC attorney has not contacted those who have had their books seized under the umbrella of investigation and not provided some type of hold receipt and contact information.

CGC really likes to gaslight victims when they lose their books (or mail the wrong ones, or damage them, or...) and try and provide "system credit" instead of actual compensation. Those with books in possession of CGC for this case really need to start asking firm questions on compensation and having someone negotiate for them. For instance will CGC compensate the difference in grade vice the entire book? What is going to determine the value of the book and more importantly when is that valuation concurrent from? I.E. if CGC now has your book are you going to receive the value as of January 2024 average or January 2027 when the case ends. What about compensation for the holding of property; the victim in good faith submitted their book to CGC and now CGC has decided to withhold that book from the victim until an arbitrary date as outlined above.

CGC doesn't need to wait for the case to end or insurance they can very easily compensate those who submitted books without any legal admission of guilt.

Also, please be very careful when CGC demands you sign an NDA. Have a third party look over it so you do not accidentally get yourself into trouble for speaking about your experience.

Edited March 19 by DougC

[BrashL]

Why should repayment be contingent on insurance and the legal outcome?  If the insurance company declines the claim and there are no damages in the verdict, are these folks out of luck?  Is CGC unable to cover the payments without those cash inflows?  None of this makes any sense. 

[Silver Surfer]

Seems like the best course of action probably would have been to retain your book if it was identified on the list, and then negotiate a settlement before sending them the book. If that failed then threaten to sue for damages. Once they have your book the above options appear to have gone out the window and you lose control of the situation? 

[ramithard]

On 3/18/2024 at 8:04 PM, Silver Surfer said:

Seems like the best course of action probably would have been to retain your book if it was identified on the list, and then negotiate a settlement before sending them the book. If that failed then threaten to sue for damages. Once they have your book the above options appear to have gone out the window and you lose control of the situation? 

But in the heat/panic of the moment when this first hit...owners of these books were told to send in,  so CGC could identify and rectify the situation.....I'm sure they did not think it would be this drawn out....

[comicwiz]

On 3/19/2024 at 6:04 AM, ramithard said:

But in the heat/panic of the moment when this first hit...owners of these books were told to send in,  so CGC could identify and rectify the situation.....I'm sure they did not think it would be this drawn out....

Sure, but there were more than plenty of posts - here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here - some providing specific links and instructions, and most directing those impacted to go to the Feds. Especially since they had already been involved in several other examples of fraud in other collecting categories, some of a lower monetary scale than what allegedly happened with the holder tampering.

So the warnings were there from very early on. Why no one bothered to report it as far back as before Christmas, we'll never know.

[jas1vans]

It's a shame that CGC can't take high res scans, create accurate grader notes, and encapsulate and send the books in question back to their owners. Ensure their condition until/if they were needed further. Then they could decide what to do about making those people whole. No book and no compensation seems like a real Richard move to me.

[BEAUMONTS]

CGC's statement in essence is it's a "for sure maybe" eventually. Best way to build confidence in your product is to not cover people who get shorted by your ineptness.  Classic

 

Edited March 19 by BEAUMONTS

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

[grendel013]

On 3/19/2024 at 8:19 AM, comicwiz said:

Why no one bothered to report it as far back as before Christmas, we'll never know.

Is this true? Did ANYONE report this?

I have said before that I was not impacted personally by this scam so I try to refrain from telling those that were impacted what to do. But I've been following this from the beginning and I pondered what I would have done. I don't think I would have sent my slab back to CGC.

I really would like to hear more from those that were impacted.

[comicwiz]

On 3/19/2024 at 10:44 AM, grendel013 said:

Is this true? Did ANYONE report this?

You'd think, after the amount of information compiled in this thread, and external to this site, with YouTube content, tweets by Paul Lesko, and the amount of books CGC itself has reported as being impacted (350). Added to this, the submission history of over 2000 books, spanning as far back as 2016, with the books I tracked from as early 2018, and the participation of at least 30-50 people in this thread alone, we would have seen something since December 2023 in the FTC's case search or the list of case proceedings.

Then also consider this is just for the alleged "holder tampering incident," which does not include what happened with the lawsuit CGC filed against two former employees. Despite this, we have nothing at least from the FTC. 

Remember also that all it took was two collectors to report the defrauding of 316 cards, for a lower monetary damage amount than what CGC claims ($4M) for the the FBI to get involved:

Baseball card collectors suspected rampant fraud in their hobby. Now the FBI is investigating.

"The scandal started after a pair of online collectors began identifying and documenting cards that were allegedly improperly modified. They have identified 316 such cards, retouched by nearly a dozen “card doctors,” that sold for a combined $1.4 million. The four collectors who spoke with investigators say the FBI suspects thousands of additional cards with similar issues are still circulating through the hobby."

Two collectors managed to get the FBI to investigate the card doctoring. According to my recollection, we've had at least a handful of people now, describing they have surrendered books and haven't been compensated. 

It seems to me there are choices here that could achieve the best possible outcome for those that are impacted as well as the greater community, and for reasons uknown to me, they are being overlooked, ignored and/or are not being utilized.

Edited March 19 by comicwiz

[Mdesimone]

On 3/19/2024 at 10:44 AM, grendel013 said:

Is this true? Did ANYONE report this?

I have said before that I was not impacted personally by this scam so I try to refrain from telling those that were impacted what to do. But I've been following this from the beginning and I pondered what I would have done. I don't think I would have sent my slab back to CGC.

I really would like to hear more from those that were impacted.

There really is no other option but to send back to cgc, it’s not cost effective to sue the scammers yourself. How are you going to prove anything to the courts. Cgc can do that for you. I don’t get is why they can’t reimburse us for the books they take into evidence now, why do we have to wait?

[grendel013]

On 3/19/2024 at 2:19 PM, Mdesimone said:

There really is no other option but to send back to cgc, it’s not cost effective to sue the scammers yourself. How are you going to prove anything to the courts. Cgc can do that for you. I don’t get is why they can’t reimburse us for the books they take into evidence now, why do we have to wait?

Can you share more about your impacted book? What book? When and where did you obtain? Did you reach out to the seller after you heard about the scam?

[Mdesimone]

On 3/19/2024 at 4:18 PM, grendel013 said:

Can you share more about your impacted book? What book? When and where did you obtain? Did you reach out to the seller after you heard about the scam?

Asm 129 bought in 2019, no did not reach out to seller , if you scroll much further back I posted all the details, cgc has my book and is keeping for evidence 

[grendel013]

On 3/19/2024 at 6:29 PM, Mdesimone said:

Asm 129 bought in 2019, no did not reach out to seller , if you scroll much further back I posted all the details, cgc has my book and is keeping for evidence 

I thought I remember you posting but I couldn't bare going back through the prior 439 pages and relive any of that.I would have reached out to the seller and asked them where they got it. If I thought they were the scammer I would have dealt with it. If they remembered where they obtained it, I would have reached out to them next. If it came to a halt I probably would have caved and sent to CGC. Just trying to play this out in my head.

[Mdesimone]

On 3/19/2024 at 6:57 PM, grendel013 said:

I thought I remember you posting but I couldn't bare going back through the prior 439 pages and relive any of that.I would have reached out to the seller and asked them where they got it. If I thought they were the scammer I would have dealt with it. If they remembered where they obtained it, I would have reached out to them next. If it came to a halt I probably would have caved and sent to CGC. Just trying to play this out in my head.

I got it directly from zanello on eBay, no point in trying to talk to them, the transaction was already 4 years old, also the price I paid for it has since doubled , so I definitely need cgc to handle this.

Edited March 20 by Mdesimone

[agamoto]

I gave up pleading others to hold onto their books and contact law enforcement long ago. There are no power in the words of some forum rando, I guess.

The feds don’t need to just take over the fraud investigation, (if it hasn’t become totally muddied), they need to also examine CGC’s role  in influencing how victims responded to the fraud.

I am very curious if anyone victimized who emailed CGC on the matter ever received any guidance to contact local, state or federal authorities to report the fraud against them.

Five will get you ten they received no such recommendation. 

[Mdesimone]

On 3/20/2024 at 12:11 PM, agamoto said:

I gave up pleading others to hold onto their books and contact law enforcement long ago. There are no power in the words of some forum rando, I guess.

The feds don’t need to just take over the fraud investigation, (if it hasn’t become totally muddied), they need to also examine CGC’s role  in influencing how victims responded to the fraud.

I am very curious if anyone victimized who emailed CGC on the matter ever received any guidance to contact local, state or federal authorities to report the fraud against them.

Five will get you ten they received no such recommendation. 

They never told me to contact any law enforcement. I myself work for NYPD. This is being handled civilly not criminal on cgc end at the moment. Cgc holds the burden of proof that the comics were swapped. I am not a grading expert I cannot state the grade of the comic, I cannot prove who was the person who reholder the book because I have no access to that info. If I went after them in court myself I would get decimated by the defense. In NYC this case would go nowhere since I cannot prove it on my own

Edited March 20 by Mdesimone