ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[drotto]

On 3/20/2024 at 12:57 PM, Mdesimone said:

They never told me to contact any law enforcement. I myself work for NYPD. This is being handled civilly not criminal on cgc end at the moment. Cgc holds the burden of proof that the comics were swapped. I am not a grading expert I cannot state the grade of the comic, I cannot prove who was the person who reholder the book because I have no access to that info. If I went after them in court myself I would get decimated by the defense. In NYC this case would go nowhere since I cannot prove it on my own

This is the inherent problem.  An individual stating something is fraudulent will never hold up in court, without having an expert testify to the fraud.  They will need an expert to prove the case. In comics CGC is that expert, and possibly one of the other grading companies. So without CGC an individual would likely lose the case. Not to mention in this case a court would not consider the available witnesses as impartial. 

[grendel013]

On 3/20/2024 at 2:45 PM, drotto said:

This is the inherent problem.  An individual stating something is fraudulent will never hold up in court, without having an expert testify to the fraud.  They will need an expert to prove the case. In comics CGC is that expert, and possibly one of the other grading companies. So without CGC an individual would likely lose the case. Not to mention in this case a court would not consider the available witnesses as impartial. 

That would be interesting to have the other company as an expert.

[DougC]

Contacting law enforcement isn't really going to do anything at this point; sure if you really want to try and put pressure on the company and see if any agency will bite on a fraud investigation, go for it. None of that will help a victim or assist in getting information/compensation while CGC is in possession of their property.

Depending on the value the book it may be worth the couple hundred to have an associates paralegal draft a notice of request to inquire about exactly what is going on. The main points being Acknowledgement and holding of property (and requesting receipt), how/who determined the fraud in your specific book, definition of compensation (are they going to pay for with holding of property during the litigation, replace the book, replace the value, some middle ground, and how/when is "value" determined), why compensation is currently being withheld from their admitted error and inappropriately tied to the civil litigation and insurance claims. Speaking of which; request certified copies of both actions as of the dates the book was in CGC's possession (this is being petty).

CGC's lack of communication with victims after receiving their books is huge red flag and will likely result in you eventually getting an email with an offer of what they view as FMV "system credit" which it should be monetary compensation for the book, all associated grading and mail fee's incurred, compensation for the detainment of personal property, and additional damages.

[grendel013]

On 3/20/2024 at 8:40 AM, Mdesimone said:

I got it directly from zanello on eBay, no point in trying to talk to them, the transaction was already 4 years old, also the price I paid for it has since doubled , so I definitely need cgc to handle this.

That's wild. I think I would have called him though. Ask him myself if he swapped the books. If he said no I would ask who he purchased from and/or if he would consider a refund and taking the burden off my hands. Imagine if he said yes just so he could get the evidence back.

I feel ya on the value increase too. It is important that CGC fully define what is their method of compensation. I personally believe each and every one of you impacted should get some additional money for every day they keep the book. That is potentially lost interest in the cash value they have yet to determine.

 

[grendel013]

On 3/20/2024 at 6:43 PM, DougC said:

Contacting law enforcement isn't really going to do anything at this point; sure if you really want to try and put pressure on the company and see if any agency will bite on a fraud investigation, go for it. None of that will help a victim or assist in getting information/compensation while CGC is in possession of their property.

Depending on the value the book it may be worth the couple hundred to have an associates paralegal draft a notice of request to inquire about exactly what is going on. The main points being Acknowledgement and holding of property (and requesting receipt), how/who determined the fraud in your specific book, definition of compensation (are they going to pay for with holding of property during the litigation, replace the book, replace the value, some middle ground, and how/when is "value" determined), why compensation is currently being withheld from their admitted error and inappropriately tied to the civil litigation and insurance claims. Speaking of which; request certified copies of both actions as of the dates the book was in CGC's possession (this is being petty).

CGC's lack of communication with victims after receiving their books is huge red flag and will likely result in you eventually getting an email with an offer of what they view as FMV "system credit" which it should be monetary compensation for the book, all associated grading and mail fee's incurred, compensation for the detainment of personal property, and additional damages.

[grendel013]

Did CGC collect every book on the list? Anyone still have their tainted slab?

[drotto]

On 3/20/2024 at 6:56 PM, grendel013 said:

Did CGC collect every book on the list? Anyone still have their tainted slab?

This more books then not are still out there.  Based on the last update the slash through means a book has been reviewed, but that still lots to go.

[DC#]

Apologies if this has been reported already here.     
 

 

 

[Lightning55]

As others have mentioned, any person directly affected by the scam has had limited options from the beginning. You don't even know if you have a swapped book for sure without releasing it to CGC to make that determination. It's always been a Catch 22.

Normally, I would advise riding it out with CGC, and if you are dissatisfied with the compensation, look at your legal options at that time. Unless you had to waive any right to seek just compensation as part of the review process, which wouldn't surprise me, and may have already been discussed. 

If so, someone would have to challenge that. It's possible that being forced to give up your future rights might void the agreement. The problem is that CGC and the affected parties need each other in order to proceed, but only CGC determines the compensation. Totally one sided, and that's wrong.

Edited March 21 by Lightning55

[royaluglydudes]

On 3/21/2024 at 12:54 AM, DC# said:

Apologies if this has been reported already here.     
 

 

 

[agamoto]

On 3/20/2024 at 9:57 AM, Mdesimone said:

They never told me to contact any law enforcement. I myself work for NYPD. This is being handled civilly not criminal on cgc end at the moment. Cgc holds the burden of proof that the comics were swapped. I am not a grading expert I cannot state the grade of the comic, I cannot prove who was the person who reholder the book because I have no access to that info. If I went after them in court myself I would get decimated by the defense. In NYC this case would go nowhere since I cannot prove it on my own

Who is telling you to go to court yourself against the guy? The dude victimized possibly hundreds of primary victims and who knows how many other secondary victims who may have purchased his bad books from those victims.

The onus is on you as the victim here to file reports with local and federal authorities, the purpose of which isn't to prove or disprove anything or to initiate any lawsuit or claim in court, but to have the case kicked up to where it belongs, in the domain of the FBI/FTC where it will be investigated as a criminal matter, and that investigation would certainly include CGC's cooperation in revealing all of that information that you don't have to investigators, whether CGC wants to or not.   

You work for the NYPD, you're the victim of interstate wire fraud and you didn't hear any alarm bells go off in your head when CGC casually forgot to mention you should report the crime against you?

On 3/20/2024 at 3:43 PM, DougC said:

Contacting law enforcement isn't really going to do anything at this point; sure if you really want to try and put pressure on the company and see if any agency will bite on a fraud investigation, go for it. None of that will help a victim or assist in getting information/compensation while CGC is in possession of their property.

Depending on the value the book it may be worth the couple hundred to have an associates paralegal draft a notice of request to inquire about exactly what is going on. The main points being Acknowledgement and holding of property (and requesting receipt), how/who determined the fraud in your specific book, definition of compensation (are they going to pay for with holding of property during the litigation, replace the book, replace the value, some middle ground, and how/when is "value" determined), why compensation is currently being withheld from their admitted error and inappropriately tied to the civil litigation and insurance claims. Speaking of which; request certified copies of both actions as of the dates the book was in CGC's possession (this is being petty).

CGC's lack of communication with victims after receiving their books is huge red flag and will likely result in you eventually getting an email with an offer of what they view as FMV "system credit" which it should be monetary compensation for the book, all associated grading and mail fee's incurred, compensation for the detainment of personal property, and additional damages.

Everything you mention here is PRECISELY why the FTC should be investigating. Not just all the incidences of fraud itself, but also CGC's unwitting role in allowing the fraud to occur in the first place as well as their poor response to it. 

[MAR1979]

On 3/20/2024 at 12:11 PM, agamoto said:

I gave up pleading others to hold onto their books and contact law enforcement long ago. There are no power in the words of some forum rando, I guess.

The feds don’t need to just take over the fraud investigation, (if it hasn’t become totally muddied),

. 

Perhaps that was the sole objective from the get go....

[Mdesimone]

On 3/21/2024 at 10:17 AM, agamoto said:

Who is telling you to go to court yourself against the guy? The dude victimized possibly hundreds of primary victims and who knows how many other secondary victims who may have purchased his bad books from those victims.

The onus is on you as the victim here to file reports with local and federal authorities, the purpose of which isn't to prove or disprove anything or to initiate any lawsuit or claim in court, but to have the case kicked up to where it belongs, in the domain of the FBI/FTC where it will be investigated as a criminal matter, and that investigation would certainly include CGC's cooperation in revealing all of that information that you don't have to investigators, whether CGC wants to or not.   

You work for the NYPD, you're the victim of interstate wire fraud and you didn't hear any alarm bells go off in your head when CGC casually forgot to mention you should report the crime against you?

Everything you mention here is PRECISELY why the FTC should be investigating. Not just all the incidences of fraud itself, but also CGC's unwitting role in allowing the fraud to occur in the first place as well as their poor response to it. 

Again you need proof to file criminal charges against some for fraud. If I do that on my own those scammers would sue me for defamation if I lose, why waste my time when cgc will do it for me.  

[bluehorseshoe]

So where do things stand as far as folks starting a civil action against CGC for this stuff?

[MasterChief]

On 3/21/2024 at 5:14 AM, Mdesimone said:

On 3/21/2024 at 4:17 AM, agamoto said:

Who is telling you to go to court yourself against the guy? The dude victimized possibly hundreds of primary victims and who knows how many other secondary victims who may have purchased his bad books from those victims.

The onus is on you as the victim here to file reports with local and federal authorities, the purpose of which isn't to prove or disprove anything or to initiate any lawsuit or claim in court, but to have the case kicked up to where it belongs, in the domain of the FBI/FTC where it will be investigated as a criminal matter, and that investigation would certainly include CGC's cooperation in revealing all of that information that you don't have to investigators, whether CGC wants to or not.   

You work for the NYPD, you're the victim of interstate wire fraud and you didn't hear any alarm bells go off in your head when CGC casually forgot to mention you should report the crime against you?

Everything you mention here is PRECISELY why the FTC should be investigating. Not just all the incidences of fraud itself, but also CGC's unwitting role in allowing the fraud to occur in the first place as well as their poor response to it. 

Again you need proof to file criminal charges against some for fraud. If I do that on my own those scammers would sue me for defamation if I lose, why waste my time when cgc will do it for me.  

It appears as though you have not read any of the posts in this thread about filing a fraud complaint with the FTC.

[AbsoluteCarnage]

Bit off topic but just wanted to point out that this thread has now made it as far as the original #'d run in The Amazing Spider-man series.  Onward to the Legacy #'d pages and to many more!!!!!!!!

[MasterChief]

On 3/21/2024 at 7:41 AM, agamoto said:

CGC going after them in civil court doesn't do anything at all to help you. 

This is CGC protecting CGC. It has nothing to do with justice for the victims. That will only come through criminal prosecution by the federal government (if and only IF the Feds are made aware of the fraudulent scheme). Folks on the boards need to understand that. CGC is not your friend and their lawsuit has NOTHING to do with victim rights or a remedy for those that were scammed.

[sledgehammer]

Coming up on 3 months since employees, or former employees of, along with the connection to comic book station, were outed here.

Not one word in this thread from one person, of ever doing business with Tommy Chabrowski, or even personally knowing him.

I do see that Vince Zurzolo recently commented "Ha" to one of Tommy's posts on facebook.

It's the one of a photo of NY traffic, not one of Tommy's multiple travel excursions.

"Ha", indeed.

 

[comicwiz]

On 3/20/2024 at 6:43 PM, DougC said:

sure if you really want to try and put pressure on the company and see if any agency will bite on a fraud investigation, go for it. None of that will help a victim or assist in getting information/compensation while CGC is in possession of their property.

I'm confused by this statement. Are you simply stating that there would be some delay, or that they would outright get no compensation at all? Compared to dealing with CGC and getting credit? If you're saying they wouldn't get any compensation at all, there's are too numerous to mention how many times the FTC has investigated and not only sought redress, but ensured victims were compensated. With the 350 list, as long as the victim can suitably prove they sent the book to CGC, there is no chance they won't be compensated. I'm also certain they'll end up with more than a service credit. I can't imagine the sting of being screwed by a company and to be compensated with credit to continue using their service.

For anyone reading, the FTC likely has a small handful of complaints about this incident already, just know that you don't have to necessarily be a victim to report this incident to them (because this impacts us all), but even a small percentage of those impacted could create a cascading effect where they do pursue this.

Don't let all the hard work, information, and community collaboration that's occured here be all for naught.

Edited March 22 by comicwiz

[DougC]

On 3/22/2024 at 6:25 AM, comicwiz said:

I'm confused by this statement. Are you simply stating that there would be some delay, or that they would outright get no compensation at all? Compared to dealing with CGC and getting credit? If you're saying they wouldn't get any compensation at all, there's are too numerous to mention how many times the FTC has investigated and not only sought redress, but ensured victims were compensated. With the 350 list, as long as the victim can suitably prove they sent the book to CGC, there is no chance they won't be compensated. I'm also certain they'll end up with more than a service credit. I can't imagine the sting of being screwed by a company and to be compensated with credit to continue using their service.

For anyone reading, the FTC likely has a small handful of complaints about this incident already, just know that you don't have to necessarily be a victim to report this incident to them (because this impacts us all), but even a small percentage of those impacted could create a cascading effect where they do pursue this.

Don't let all the hard work, information, and community collaboration that's occured here be all for naught.

That is a lot of reading a self inserted argument into what I posted, I don't even know how to reply.