Show me your Timely's and I'll show you mine. Have a Cigar... 30 30

[Robot Man]

On 1/12/2023 at 9:56 AM, Frisco Larson said:

There is a lot of benefit to the attitude presented in your post RM! SO many of the Golden Age comics we see posted have incredible artwork on the inside! I love thumbing thru a big fat Golden Age book, taking in a whiff of that vintage paper as I enjoy looking at the artwork, checking out some cool house ads and occasionally even reading a well written story! However, in this new age of certified collecting, a lot of people I've seen post and some I've met at shows are openly afraid to handle raw comics ... afraid that they might damage them, and many seem to have absolutely no idea how to accurately grade a comic or check it for restoration, SO, they steer clear of them altogether. Another factor is that you were describing your Timely copies as beaters (I suspect a little self-deprecation there), and you can easily see that a LOT of the comics being posted here are very high-grade and therefore, at quite the financial risk if they were to be damaged while thumbing them up. It seems that certification has bred a new way to collect, and many choose that path. I'm crazy ... I have both certified and raw books ... high grade, mid-grade, low grade & no grade are all to be found in my crazy collection. That's perhaps the best part of collecting comics; there's so many ways to do it and all of them are important to maintaining a well-rounded hobby! Keep those beaters coming ... I love to see them!!! 

Oh, I fully get it Frisco. You and I are cut from the same cloth. I have everything from high grade pedigrees down to coverless in my collection. I have handled all of them without a problem. I have always been a “collector of opportunity”. I really love the medium. There is no right way to collect. But it has gotton to the point where comics have gone the way of widgets. Very expensive widgets. We just have to remember what it was that attracted us to them in the first place.

I have seen people apologize when they post low grade books. That is sad. 

[Cat-Man_America]

On 1/11/2023 at 6:51 PM, Frisco Larson said:

The choice is yours and yours alone. You've got a LOT of fantastic comics and how you choose to contain them comes with the price of purchase. I AM curious though (of course, you're under no obligation to satisfy my curiosity) as to why you prefer the first gen holders. Do you think that re-holdering puts some instant stigma to the comic inside as to indicate that it's been manipulated in some way? I can understand that thinking, as many times comics ARE pressed or surface cleaned, which aren't considered restoration by certification companies. However, I know plenty of people who simply re-submitted the books for re-grading, without any procedure being performed. Anyway, just curious as to why you prefer the old holders as I personally see no advantage in quality, clarity and in MOST instances the labels don't carry anywhere NEAR the same level of creator information. 

Thanks!  Sorry, it's taken me awhile getting back to this thread today.

Excellent question and the answers are complicated.  For me it's always about the book and preserving it in it's current state (in this case, Texas).

While I see merit in certain kinds of manipulations irrespective of grade bumps, I'm generally opposed to structural manipulations of any kind.  I'm not the only one who feels this way, but it does go against the tide (which ...unlike the adage... doesn't raise all boats). In very rare instances there might be situations where I'd avail myself of those services if ...after weighing the risks... the book was more likely to benefit from it without introducing other faults or damage, but those circumstances are very rare indeed.  Anyway, I wouldn't criticize anyone for taking advantage of such a service as this should be a matter of conscience. Note: My earlier post wasn't targeting Richy in any way, but it's easy to see how snarky impressions can be drawn from the most innocent musing.

As for the holders and their appearance, that's a touchy issue. CGC wasn't the first to employ crystal clear cases, but they certainly went all-in on it when Barex (the material used in the inner envelopes) ceased production.  I'm not making comparisons or judging anything else here, just relaying the history based on my own impressions (other's opinions may vary).

The labels are another matter altogether because it all comes down to aesthetics and presentation; again, this is a personal thing and other's may have different aesthetic impressions.  

Okay, here we go (What follows in spoilers is designed to keep the worms from escaping; hooks are optional): 

Spoiler

Confession: I find nothing necessarily magical about old labels except perceptions of a particular point in time.  Some folks think grading was tighter in the "good ole days" before the dawn of new holders and labels, some don't, but ...    

All things considered, the idea of jockeying for grade bumps doesn't excite me nor would I ever recommend it to a collector, no matter how BIG the grade box, how bold the grade or how much cheese was in the trap. When I see newer label books my automatic assumption is that the book has a .5 or .2 higher grade advantage over the same quality book graded a decade earlier.  This is a perception thing; grading, after all, is just an opinion expressed by one or more trained graders utilizing the best scientific crystal balls; no Ouija board has been left unopened to reach exactly the correct pronouncement! Those naysayers who think the latest third party grading is just a game of leap-frog to squeeze more blood out of turnip collectors are just being ants at the company picnic. Did I mention ...  

Lab rat in maze (chase the cheese) syndrome:  "...plenty of people who simply re-submitted the books for re-grading, without any procedure being performed."  What you pointed out makes a lot of dollars and sense; it's still re-grading rather than strictly re-holdering, but there's more rationalizing involved. You're absolutely right; this suggests to me that the first grade was in error and in order to get a "new" opinion from savvier graders with bigger crystal balls you have to play the game of musical thrones and pay the piper. Of course there's the crystal clear case and bold inky-black grade in a neon white Broadway grade box, but the real reason to indulge in the sport of grade bumping is increasing the book's perceived value forcing everyone else with a lower graded copy to get on the same treadmill or risk leaving money on the table with second/third tier banana-books. Okay, that's gotta be ... 

Bottom line, every time a book is re-holdered there's a risk of damage ...minor though it may be, it's still a risk.

More information on labels is great when correct information is available, but other than info about cover art, interior artists & writers, pedigree, and perhaps noteworthy historical relevance where applicable, it's more icing than cake.

Personally, my holder preference is guided by three principles: 1) protection of the encapsulated book, 2) label aesthetics, and 3) trustworthy info. including the grade, not necessarily in that order.  The only other consideration is ease of scanning labels and books which is decidedly more difficult with the newer labels.  I should probably add, I'm quite fond of CGC's antique gold pedigree labels; these are pretty much perfect (except for the oversized grade box). This was a brilliant idea and if my suggestions in the request for label ideas thread contributed anything to the discussions or decision I'll thank the Academy without slapping anybody.

Just for grins I'll contribute something Timely topical to go with the worms I've added to the thread...

Please note the rare inclusion of labels! Both are old school and of the approved company branding!

Hopefully this post will amuse rather than irritate, but I'll grab a flak-jacket for incoming just in case. 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Cat-Man_America
Ale added!

[Frisco Larson]

On 1/12/2023 at 7:07 PM, Robot Man said:

Oh, I fully get it Frisco. You and I are cut from the same cloth. I have everything from high grade pedigrees down to coverless in my collection. I have handled all of them without a problem. I have always been a “collector of opportunity”. I really love the medium. There is no right way to collect. But it has gotton to the point where comics have gone the way of widgets. Very expensive widgets. We just have to remember what it was that attracted us to them in the first place.

I have seen people apologize when they post low grade books. That is sad. 

We do indeed occupy common ground RM! I remember bumping into a buddy (Mark Haspel) at Chicago Comic Con in 2000 and him telling me all about CGC and encapsulation and what it would do for the hobby. I also remember telling him (as did my buddy Russ who was with me) that it'd never work, that it's not a baseball card and that people want to look inside their comics to read them and enjoy the artwork. Boy have Russ and I admitted how wrong we were. We completely bet the wrong horse on the idea that collectors would fiercely reject the notion of relinquishing their option to leaf thru their comics at their leisure. That point was really at the heart of my opinion upon being told of the venture. I hadn't thought far enough down the line to see that certification would have its advantages too, for at that time, all I could see was not being able to look thru my comics anymore. Certification has changed some of my collecting methods. I now have high grade certified copies and reader copies of the same issues. I will always have raw comics, always! 

I also think it's sad when collectors apologize for or even marginalize the comics they post here. It's not a competition. Not everyone has the same life, the same resources, etc. Also, I know friends that have had some of their prized and very expensive comics for many DECADES and if they were to have to buy them now, they'd likely never be able to afford their collections due to the percentage increases over the last number of years. I'm really happy that so many people love comics and make efforts to share them here! We're all just temporary owners of them anyway!  

[Frisco Larson]

On 1/12/2023 at 10:32 PM, Cat-Man_America said:

Thanks!  Sorry, it's taken me awhile getting back to this thread today.

Excellent question and the answers are complicated.  For me it's always about the book and preserving it in it's current state (in this case, Texas).

While I see merit in certain kinds of manipulations irrespective of grade bumps, I'm generally opposed to structural manipulations of any kind.  I'm not the only one who feels this way, but it does go against the tide (which ...unlike the adage... doesn't raise all boats). In very rare instances there might be situations where I'd avail myself of those services if ...after weighing the risks... the book was more likely to benefit from it without introducing other faults or damage, but those circumstances are very rare indeed.  Anyway, I wouldn't criticize anyone for taking advantage of such a service as this should be a matter of conscience. Note: My earlier post wasn't targeting Richy in any way, but it's easy to see how snarky impressions can be drawn from the most innocent musing.

As for the holders and their appearance, that's a touchy issue. CGC wasn't the first to employ crystal clear cases, but they certainly went all-in on it when Barex (the material used in the inner envelopes) ceased production.  I'm not making comparisons or judging anything else here, just relaying the history based on my own impressions (other's opinions may vary).

The labels are another matter altogether because it all comes down to aesthetics and presentation; again, this is a personal thing and other's may have different aesthetic impressions.  

Okay, here we go (What follows in spoilers is designed to keep the worms from escaping; hooks are optional): 

  Reveal hidden contents

Confession: I find nothing necessarily magical about old labels except perceptions of a particular point in time.  Some folks think grading was tighter in the "good ole days" before the dawn of new holders and labels, some don't, but ...    

All things considered, the idea of jockeying for grade bumps doesn't excite me nor would I ever recommend it to a collector, no matter how BIG the grade box, how bold the grade or how much cheese was in the trap. When I see newer label books my automatic assumption is that the book has a .5 or .2 higher grade advantage over the same quality book graded a decade earlier.  This is a perception thing; grading, after all, is just an opinion expressed by one or more trained graders utilizing the best scientific crystal balls; no Ouija board has been left unopened to reach exactly the correct pronouncement! Those naysayers who think the latest third party grading is just a game of leap-frog to squeeze more blood out of turnip collectors are just being ants at the company picnic. Did I mention ...  

Lab rat in maze (chase the cheese) syndrome:  "...plenty of people who simply re-submitted the books for re-grading, without any procedure being performed."  What you pointed out makes a lot of dollars and sense; it's still re-grading rather than strictly re-holdering, but there's more rationalizing involved. You're absolutely right; this suggests to me that first grade was in error and in order to get a "new" opinion from savvier graders with bigger crystal balls you have to play the game of musical thrones and pay the piper. Of course there's the crystal clear case and bold inky-black grade in a neon white Broadway grade box, but the real reason to indulge in the sport of grade bumping is increasing the book's perceived value forcing everyone else with a lower graded copy to get on the same treadmill or risk leaving money on the table with second/third tier books. Okay, that's gotta be ... 

Bottom line, every time a book is re-holdered there's a risk of damage ...minor though it may be, it's still a risk.

More information on labels is great when correct information is available, but other than info about cover art, interior artists & writers, pedigree, and perhaps noteworthy historical relevance where applicable, it's more icing than cake.

Personally, my holder preference is guided by three principles: 1) protection of the encapsulated book, 2) label aesthetics, and 3) trustworthy info. including the grade, not necessarily in that order.  The only other consideration is ease of scanning labels and books which is decidedly more difficult with the newer labels.  I should probably add, I'm quite fond of CGC's antique gold pedigree labels; these are pretty much perfect (except for the oversized grade box). This was a brilliant idea and if my suggestions in the request for label ideas thread contributed anything to the discussions or decision I'll thank the Academy without slapping anybody.

Just for grins I'll contribute something Timely topical to go with the worms I've added to the thread...

Hopefully this post will amuse rather than irritate, but I'll grab a flak-jacket for incoming just in case. 

Cat, thanks for taking the time to respond. I think I have a somewhat better understanding of where you're coming from now. We all have our idiosyncrasies and individual insights as to why we believe what we believe, regardless of whether or not those perceptions are based on provable facts or suppositions based on our observations. We all have different experiences and process the knowledge gleaned from them thru our own filters. This creates a very broad spectrum of individuals with a myriad of different views of the same picture. Like anywhere else in society, we tend to gravitate toward those that are like minded and not so much ones that we just don't understand. I actually think that it's pretty amazing that for the MOST part, people get along really well on here, with only the occasional dust up. 

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 1/13/2023 at 12:11 AM, Frisco Larson said:

We're all just temporary owners of them anyway!  

Except for the ones that will line my coffin 

[Figment]

I will never apologize for posting low grade glop, even if I am envious of all those high grade gems.  Like Frisco said, it's not a competition.

[adamstrange]

On 1/13/2023 at 1:11 AM, Frisco Larson said:

We're all just temporary owners of them anyway!

 

[badback83]

Found a copy to go with a Christmas gift from a friend.  

[Frisco Larson]

On 1/13/2023 at 6:14 AM, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Except for the ones that will line my coffin 

If you can manage mausoleum money, we can all stop by to say "hi" and thumb up your comics!    

[Frisco Larson]

On 1/13/2023 at 7:13 AM, adamstrange said:

 

LOVE this!!! In fact, when I eventually croak, my plan is to NOT leave my comics and artwork to anyone ... but rather to leave them to EVERYONE!!! I've been thinking that leaving them to the right museum might be the best way to do my part for the hobby. 

[Frisco Larson]

On 1/13/2023 at 9:06 AM, DocHoppus182 said:

Found a copy to go with a Christmas gift from a friend.  

Perfect pair right there!  

[adamstrange]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:45 AM, Frisco Larson said:

 I've been thinking that leaving them to the right museum might be the best way to do my part for the hobby. 

The more I have looked at how museums handle bequests and store the material in their care, the less interested I am in this option.

Robert Lesser created one of the finest collections of original pulp paintings.  He donated it to a small county art museum in Connecticut that I visited in hopes of seeing the art.  After wandering through the halls, seeing no pulp paintings or any significant pieces of any kind of art, I asked at the desk where the pulp paintings were.  They dismissively answered that they only sometimes displayed pieces from the collection.  Despite the fact that his was the only nationally significant art they owned, it was not what they consider "art of quality".

They weren't correct about not displaying any, as I discovered a few minutes later when I noticed two of his paintings hung above the bathroom door.  I believe Lesser eventually gave them another couple million to build a special room dedicated to his paintings, but I don't know whether that was done.

[plady69]

On 1/13/2023 at 9:17 AM, adamstrange said:

The more I have looked at how museums handle bequests and store the material in their care, the less interested I am in this option.

Robert Lesser created one of the finest collections of original pulp paintings.  He donated it to a small county art museum in Connecticut that I visited in hopes of seeing the art.  After wandering through the halls, seeing no pulp paintings or any significant pieces of any kind of art, I asked at the desk where the pulp paintings were.  They dismissively answered that they only sometimes displayed pieces from the collection.  Despite the fact that his was the only nationally significant art they owned, it was not what they consider "art of quality".

They weren't correct about not displaying any, as I discovered a few minutes later when I noticed two of his paintings hung above the bathroom door.  I believe Lesser eventually gave them another couple million to build a special room dedicated to his paintings, but I don't know whether that was done.

Wow! That is some serious BS!  We should all go there at least once and inquire what room the Lesser collection is displayed in. 😖

[adamstrange]

On 1/13/2023 at 12:40 PM, plady69 said:

Wow! That is some serious BS!  We should all go there at least once and inquire what room the Lesser collection is displayed in. 😖

There is not just a problem with pulp or comic art.  Even if you have "quality art", it may get sold to pay for upkeep or to fund acquisition of works the staff like more.  It is extremely hard to attach conditions to a bequest because the staff do not want their hands tied.  Even billion dollar donations have sometimes been rejected.

[Frisco Larson]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:17 AM, adamstrange said:

The more I have looked at how museums handle bequests and store the material in their care, the less interested I am in this option.

Robert Lesser created one of the finest collections of original pulp paintings.  He donated it to a small county art museum in Connecticut that I visited in hopes of seeing the art.  After wandering through the halls, seeing no pulp paintings or any significant pieces of any kind of art, I asked at the desk where the pulp paintings were.  They dismissively answered that they only sometimes displayed pieces from the collection.  Despite the fact that his was the only nationally significant art they owned, it was not what they consider "art of quality".

They weren't correct about not displaying any, as I discovered a few minutes later when I noticed two of his paintings hung above the bathroom door.  I believe Lesser eventually gave them another couple million to build a special room dedicated to his paintings, but I don't know whether that was done.

Wow, that is just awful!!! Well, I'll either have to find the right place or go about it in a completely different manner. Thanks for the heads up on that though!!! 

[Robot Man]

Yeah, no way would I leave my collection to a museum. There is just no respect. And, they control if it gets displayed or even sold. I quiver at the thought of people I don't know mistreating what I have spent so long acquiring. My collection will be sold by my family. Hopefully at auction.I would wish to have my wife, kids and grandkids get the money and to have my stuff spread out as much as possible to those who will love and take care of it as I have. 

At the end of the day, you come into this world naked, and screaming with nothing. And this is the way you will leave it...

[Robot Man]

Don't remember if I ever posted this beater.

Got this MANY years ago from Bud Plant's boxes at SDCC. First copy I ever saw. I believe it was $35. Got a lot of laughing from people for buying it. Yes, it has a couple bullet holes all the way through it. I carefully went through and popped them back out. Not much reason to grade it but if I ever did, it would be funny to see the graders notes and label...

[buttock]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:59 AM, Robot Man said:

Don't remember if I ever posted this beater.

Got this MANY years ago from Bud Plant's boxes at SDCC. First copy I ever saw. I believe it was $35. Got a lot of laughing from people for buying it. Yes, it has a couple bullet holes all the way through it. I carefully went through and popped them back out. Not much reason to grade it but if I ever did, it would be funny to see the graders notes and label...

Chris Pedrin had that on his wall at SDCC back in the 90s.  Maybe you got it from him?

[adamstrange]

On 1/13/2023 at 1:42 PM, Frisco Larson said:

Wow, that is just awful!!! Well, I'll either have to find the right place or go about it in a completely different manner. Thanks for the heads up on that though!!! 

There are three US institutions that seek and maintain repositories of comics and comic art:  Syracuse Univ, Ohio State Univ, and Mich State Univ.

Edited January 13, 2023 by adamstrange

[Frisco Larson]

On 1/13/2023 at 5:16 PM, adamstrange said:

There are three US institutions that seek and maintain repositories of comics and comic art:  Syracuse Univ, Ohio State Univ, and Mich State Univ.

Good to know, thanks for the info!