Ive lost ALL confidence in CGC - UPDATE on page 221 2 2

[Jiminy_Cricket-migration]

I'm starting to believe the new submitter was a man with a plan.

 

Have we come full circle back to a set-up yet? Or instead of the word 'set-up', we use CGC was taken advantage of'?

 

And where is Roy?

 

 

 

[Jiminy_Cricket-migration]

This is the first time I have read a 16 page thread !

Congrats! Your reward is waiting for you in the PIF thread. Please claim it ASAP.

[Westy Steve]

I think this is the law of large numbers at play. You grade thousands of books, you're going to make a mistake here and there. Suppose the first time they graded it, they truly believed it was a "blue six". Then they graded it again, and after looking at it, they truly believed it was a "purple seven"....should they have graded it anything else? OK, so then they graded it again and they really believed it was a "blue six" again. Should they have put it into a purple label even though they reconsidered and believed it was blue?

 

Wouldn't it be a bad thing if they put something in a purple label just because they didn't want to appear inconsistent? IMHO, that would be worse.

 

Seems like at least 2 out of 3 graders that graded it the right before it was put in a PLOD really thought it was trimmed, and when asked about more opinions, tried to cover their butts. That does bite. The honest truth is that if you want your book graded again, you should resubmit it again if you really believe the grade is unjust. And if the service keeps coming out inconsistent, spend your grading dollars elsewhere. If I get a bad Hamburger at McDonalds, I don't think that there is a problem with the entire corporation. I think it was the cook working the night I got a bad one. If it keeps happening again and again..then I'll go to Burger King.

 

I don't see anyone crying when they resubmit a book and get a higher grade...wringing their hands about inconsistencies. Someone made a mistake, but it's not the end of the world. Seems like the book belongs in the slab that it's in now. An CGC should pay restitution to the guy who ended up getting an undeserved PLOD. And that's that.

 

Edited March 31, 2014 by Westy Steve

[NinjaSealed]

This was originally my book, purchased in the 1st 6.0 slab 5+ years ago.

The book was part of a deal between Dan and I. I was as shocked as anybody about the PLOD but Dan didn't blame me and I remained stealth.

The deal between Dan and I had it's share of drama anyway and I had nothing to add.

This is definitely the same book. The book had a vertical reader's crease, near the spine, that ran practically the full length of the book. I remember showing the book to Matt years ago and he said the book could not be improved and had just as much chance as coming back a 5.5 as a 6.5 = he advised against a resub. I guess he was correct on that call.

I have nothing concrete to add to this situation but I do have one BIG question. Why would the new owner resub this book, especially in a Walkthrough tier? Surely he did not expect this outcome. Did he expect a higher grade ? I thought the 7.0, for a book length crease, was generous.

Something seems funny here. I suspect if we knew the identity of the new owner we may be even more upset.

 

There is obviously no way the new owner would try for a grade bump, the book was already slabbed so the "I like to have my books slabbed" cannot be in play, the only reason to resub would be to gamble for the blue.

 

This leads me to a few things.

A. I would NOT buy books from someone who would do this.

B. If this is a high volume submitter/dealer/buddy of anyone at CGC then that is a large can of worms.

C. If anyone who saw this book when it was being closely scrutinized and did not recognize the book a month later they can't be very intelligent.

[batman_fan]

 

 

Can't wait to hear the apologists take on this.......

 

fixed by pressing

 

 

[Bomber-Bob]

I have a plausible theory that Dan(the original OP) can shed some light on.

What if the new owner submitted the book with the original 6.0 OW Blue label, perhaps for a 'review'. In that case the focus of the graders would be on the grade, not a resto check. With a blue label attached they would probably skip the resto check. The fact that the grade, page quality, and label color are all identical to the original blue label makes this plausible.

Dan, did you pass the original label along to the new owner ?

[Prince Namor]

If that's the case, it's major red flag as well.

[CBT]

There is obviously no way the new owner would try for a grade bump, the book was already slabbed so the "I like to have my books slabbed" cannot be in play, the only reason to resub would be to gamble for the blue.

 

This leads me to a few things.

A. I would NOT buy books from someone who would do this.

B. If this is a high volume submitter/dealer/buddy of anyone at CGC then that is a large can of worms.

C. If anyone who saw this book when it was being closely scrutinized and did not recognize the book a month later they can't be very intelligent.

 

People seem to be reading a lot into the re-sub. If I bought a purple JIM 83, I would assume I would have been told the history of the book.

 

You dont have to be balls-y, or trying a setup, as the purchaser of the book, to say:

 

Hey, I dont like what happened to the last owner, sounds fishy. Mighty as well take a risk on the resub.

 

If anything, what it shows, is that the walkthrough grading is WAY less likely to catch subtle resto, because they are just churning books through.

 

 

Now everyone who owns slightly trimmed books, has a greenlight to find the busiest walkthrough submission sites, and try and blue their purples.

Edited March 31, 2014 by CBT

[joeypost]

I am sure all questions will be answered. Remember that most of CGC was in Seattle this week. At best I would assume Tuesday will be the first day they will have to digest and then respond to the concerns in this thread.

[Bomber-Bob]

If that's the case, it's major red flag as well.

 

'If' this is the case, CGC was duped by the submitter = not CGC's fault. It's been pretty obvious the past few years that some submitters are gaming the system. This would simply be another example. Another thing I don't understand, why would the new owner show this to Dan ? He must have realized there would be some consequence. We really need to find out who the submitter is.

[mysterio]

I have a plausible theory that Dan(the original OP) can shed some light on.

What if the new owner submitted the book with the original 6.0 OW Blue label, perhaps for a 'review'. In that case the focus of the graders would be on the grade, not a resto check. With a blue label attached they would probably skip the resto check. The fact that the grade, page quality, and label color are all identical to the original blue label makes this plausible.

Dan, did you pass the original label along to the new owner ?

 

How can they "review" a raw book with a loose label included with it? There would be no way to know that the label was supposed to go with that book unless it was slabbed. I can't see how this theory could be that plausible.

[BlowUpTheMoon]

If that's the case, it's major red flag as well.

 

'If' this is the case, CGC was duped by the submitter = not CGC's fault. It's been pretty obvious the past few years that some submitters are gaming the system. This would simply be another example. Another thing I don't understand, why would the new owner show this to Dan ? He must have realized there would be some consequence. We really need to find out who the submitter is.

 

The book was sold via PM.

[sufunk]

I'm no CGC zombie but this is almost too good to be true for anti CGCers. Smells like a set-up.

The purple label 7.0 was graded before the blue label 6.0. Plus, why would anyone want to go to the expense for a setup? There's really nothing to be gained other than bad press and the CGC certainly doesn't need anyone's help in that regard.

 

Certification #: 0227546002

Title: Journey Into Mystery

Issue: 83

Issue Date: 8/62

Issue Year: 1962

Publisher: Marvel Comics

Grade: 7.0

Pedigree: COVER TRIMMED

Page Quality: OFF-WHITE TO WHITE

Label Text: TOP EDGE OF COVER TRIMMED.

Grade Date: 02/14/2014

Category: Apparent

Art Comments: Stan Lee story

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko art

Jack Kirby cover

Key Comments: Origin and 1st appearance of Thor

(Doctor Don Blake).

 

 

Certification #: 0230667003

Title: Journey Into Mystery

Issue: 83

Issue Date: 8/62

Issue Year: 1962

Publisher: Marvel Comics

Grade: 6.0

Page Quality: OFF-WHITE

Grade Date: 03/27/2014

Category: Universal

Art Comments: Stan Lee story

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko art

Jack Kirby cover

Key Comments: Origin and 1st appearance of Thor

(Doctor Don Blake).

 

What really confuses me are the grade dates. Only several weeks apart. This book and all the hoopla had to be fresh in their memories. You'd have to be completely incompetent for not a single CGC employee to go, "Hey isn't this the comic we just had all the....."

 

And how did it get graded so quickly. If you factor in the shipping times from CGC to customer, customer sells it to next person, then customer shipsback to CGC... that has to take awhile. How did this book get graded so fast? Did someone pay for a walkthrough?

 

This "fresh in their memories" argument is VERY interesting to me!!!

 

As many of you know and remember my Avengers 4 CPR fiasco. Originally a 9.2, regraded to a 9.0 and then regraded again to a 8.5. These resubmissions were like 6 months apart or longer and Avengers 4 is a VERY common book!

 

After the last submission, Harshen basically told me in no uncertain terms that I should be happy with the final 8.5 grade and NOT attempt another resub as one grader had it as a 8.0 and this book would DEFINITELY be remembered and most likely drop in grade again if I did. Somehow my Avengers 4 with nothing whatsoever to distinguish it from the MANY other Avengers 4 subbed every year would DEFINITELY be remembered but a JIM 83 with a very distinctive fault and a stink made about it wasnt remembered a month later?!?

 

This is EXACTLY the kind of nonsense that erodes confidence in cgc and makes people VERY justifiably worried about the special treatment some high volume submitters or connections receive when submitting their books! How this book was not remembered but I was at out told my Avengers 4 would DEFINITELY be remembered over a year after submission is not only baffling but sketchy as hell IMO!

 

 

[sufunk]

If that's the case, it's major red flag as well.

 

'If' this is the case, CGC was duped by the submitter = not CGC's fault. It's been pretty obvious the past few years that some submitters are gaming the system. This would simply be another example. Another thing I don't understand, why would the new owner show this to Dan ? He must have realized there would be some consequence. We really need to find out who the submitter is.

 

The book was sold via PM.

 

I would bet the house the new submitter was NOT some average joe and someone that sends cgc a LOT of business

[Jiminy_Cricket-migration]

If that's the case, it's major red flag as well.

 

'If' this is the case, CGC was duped by the submitter = not CGC's fault. It's been pretty obvious the past few years that some submitters are gaming the system. This would simply be another example. Another thing I don't understand, why would the new owner show this to Dan ? He must have realized there would be some consequence. We really need to find out who the submitter is.

 

The book was sold via PM.

Which boardies are also mods with access to our PMs?

[benz]

if CGC is listed on the stock market, its price would go down way fast. How can this happen?

[NinjaSealed]

I'm no CGC zombie but this is almost too good to be true for anti CGCers. Smells like a set-up.

The purple label 7.0 was graded before the blue label 6.0. Plus, why would anyone want to go to the expense for a setup? There's really nothing to be gained other than bad press and the CGC certainly doesn't need anyone's help in that regard.

 

Certification #: 0227546002

Title: Journey Into Mystery

Issue: 83

Issue Date: 8/62

Issue Year: 1962

Publisher: Marvel Comics

Grade: 7.0

Pedigree: COVER TRIMMED

Page Quality: OFF-WHITE TO WHITE

Label Text: TOP EDGE OF COVER TRIMMED.

Grade Date: 02/14/2014

Category: Apparent

Art Comments: Stan Lee story

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko art

Jack Kirby cover

Key Comments: Origin and 1st appearance of Thor

(Doctor Don Blake).

 

 

Certification #: 0230667003

Title: Journey Into Mystery

Issue: 83

Issue Date: 8/62

Issue Year: 1962

Publisher: Marvel Comics

Grade: 6.0

Page Quality: OFF-WHITE

Grade Date: 03/27/2014

Category: Universal

Art Comments: Stan Lee story

Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko art

Jack Kirby cover

Key Comments: Origin and 1st appearance of Thor

(Doctor Don Blake).

 

What really confuses me are the grade dates. Only several weeks apart. This book and all the hoopla had to be fresh in their memories. You'd have to be completely incompetent for not a single CGC employee to go, "Hey isn't this the comic we just had all the....."

 

And how did it get graded so quickly. If you factor in the shipping times from CGC to customer, customer sells it to next person, then customer shipsback to CGC... that has to take awhile. How did this book get graded so fast? Did someone pay for a walkthrough?

 

This "fresh in their memories" argument is VERY interesting to me!!!

 

As many of you know and remember my Avengers 4 CPR fiasco. Originally a 9.2, regraded to a 9.0 and then regraded again to a 8.5. These resubmissions were like 6 months apart or longer and Avengers 4 is a VERY common book!

 

After the last submission, Harshen basically told me in no uncertain terms that I should be happy with the final 8.5 grade and NOT attempt another resub as one grader had it as a 8.0 and this book would DEFINITELY be remembered and most likely drop in grade again if I did. Somehow my Avengers 4 with nothing whatsoever to distinguish it from the MANY other Avengers 4 subbed every year would DEFINITELY be remembered but a JIM 83 with a very distinctive fault and a stink made about it wasnt remembered a month later?!?

 

This is EXACTLY the kind of nonsense that erodes confidence in cgc and makes people VERY justifiably worried about the special treatment some high volume submitters or connections receive when submitting their books! How this book was not remembered but I was at out told my Avengers 4 would DEFINITELY be remembered over a year after submission is not only baffling but sketchy as hell IMO!

 

 

It is literally mind boggling. A mega key that is the same grade as a book that was just a moderate fiasco a month earlier scoots through like this?

[Junkdrawer]

This whole ordeal would make a lot more sense if the grading company was PGX. I'd bet CGC makes good on this with the OP.

This isn't just a cracked slab after all.

[skypinkblu]

So when someone buys a raw book that is represented as unrestored and the new buyer submits it, it's been an accepted practice that the seller should take the book back and refund if it comes back restored.

 

Does this work in reverse?

 

We should just have the buyer give back the book to Dan and Dan can refund, because it's NOT restored.

 

 

Seriously, we really do need the graders notes back...the fact that they are no longer free has created an excessive amount of wondering.

 

 

We also need a stroke tally on each book that's being resubmitted. A notch in one corner of the slab would work.

[Cyclops]

What really confuses me are the grade dates. Only several weeks apart. This book and all the hoopla had to be fresh in their memories. You'd have to be completely incompetent for not a single CGC employee to go, "Hey isn't this the comic we just had all the....."

 

Especially when "everyone in the building with grading credibility looked at the book, and EVERYONE agreed it was trimmed."