Will CGC make an official statement?

[SquareChaos]

It's no different than a lawyer pumping himself on another law firm's site.

Not quite. For a while Joey was happily doing business on this board with full endorsement of CGC, until CGC eventually decided to provide the service themselves. It's more like a lawyer promoting his wares on a site owned by a guy thinking of one day going to law school maybe, and then years later when he actually graduates he deletes every mention of the previous lawyer.

 

Also, every time that previous lawyer handled a case, the law school student got paid, accumulating to countless thousands of dollars we can only speculate at the moment.

 

Except something happened. Joey became 'the official pressing service of CBCS Comics'.

 

So it's not the same.

 

If this is a fact how can people question CGC's motovation?

 

They are a business, first and foremost. These boards are a business expense that they continue to incur becuase they feel it's existence helps their profit.

 

Joey may be the nicest and finest presser around but if he works for a competitor the dynamic changes.

 

 

They can do this... but it is bush league.

 

What if the plastic supplier for their slabs decides to supply plastic to... that other company... as well?

 

Want to make it known the Joey that no advertisement will be allowed for... that other company... on this site? Great! Do so. Inform him privately (of something I'm sure he already knows, accepts, and understands) and there you are - handled in a professional manner.

 

This has been handled in a very bush league manner, I don't think anyone can deny that... and if they do deny it, I'd like to know on what grounds.

 

You're speculating. I can deny that that is "bush league", and my grounds are this: threads that are essentially advertisements for competition, or "semi-competition" shouldn't be allowed. Threads are deleted here all the time. "I love joeypost" threads were deleted before the last "I love joeypost" thread. CGC is a business, not a charity, and although I agree with Transplant's reasoning for why leeway for posting should be allowed, allowing advertising for others in threads is not good business.

 

That's not stopping CFP from buying ad space to run on the board.

 

No offense, but you're clearly wrong. Otherwise they would have done this as soon as they brought pressing services in-house.

[Foolkiller]

Free advertising that somehow profited CGC thousands and thousands of dollars and created the very lucrative CPR method that they are banking on today. Lets not pretend it wasn't mutually beneficial.

 

If all the CPR went away tomorrow, CGC would still exist.

 

CPR needs CGC and other legitimate grading companies. CGC and other legitimate grading companies don't need CPR.

 

And "I love joeypost" threads didn't create CPR.

Of course CPR wouldn't go away. But if not for Joey doing the R&D and testing the market first, would CGC even be in the pressing game today?

 

It was a mutually beneficial deal. Not charity on behalf of CGC that only Joey was a beneficiary of.

 

I think your history is a bit off. The CPR game went on long before Joey was doing it.

[dupont2005]

Free advertising that somehow profited CGC thousands and thousands of dollars and created the very lucrative CPR method that they are banking on today. Lets not pretend it wasn't mutually beneficial.

 

If all the CPR went away tomorrow, CGC would still exist.

 

CPR needs CGC and other legitimate grading companies. CGC and other legitimate grading companies don't need CPR.

 

And "I love joeypost" threads didn't create CPR.

Of course CPR wouldn't go away. But if not for Joey doing the R&D and testing the market first, would CGC even be in the pressing game today?

 

It was a mutually beneficial deal. Not charity on behalf of CGC that only Joey was a beneficiary of.

 

I think your history is a bit off. The CPR game went on long before Joey was doing it.

Was anyone else a large and open vendor of such services, or was it some kind of secret amateur process done with zero information, zero disclosure, ect?

 

He legitimized the process, and made it safe, assuming he's insured. I doubt CGC would have in house pressing if not for the example set by Joey.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Free advertising that somehow profited CGC thousands and thousands of dollars and created the very lucrative CPR method that they are banking on today. Lets not pretend it wasn't mutually beneficial.

 

If all the CPR went away tomorrow, CGC would still exist.

 

CPR needs CGC and other legitimate grading companies. CGC and other legitimate grading companies don't need CPR.

 

And "I love joeypost" threads didn't create CPR.

Of course CPR wouldn't go away. But if not for Joey doing the R&D and testing the market first, would CGC even be in the pressing game today?

 

Unequivocal yes.

 

There were professional pressers doing CPR before Joey. Joey didn't invent and develop the CPR market.

 

It was a mutually beneficial deal. Not charity on behalf of CGC that only Joey was a beneficiary of.

 

Of course it was mutually beneficial. But it was NOT an equal partnership. Again: CGC doesn't need CPR, and hasn't for the nearly 15 years they've been open, to be in business.

 

CPR. on the other hand, wouldn't exist without CGC.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Free advertising that somehow profited CGC thousands and thousands of dollars and created the very lucrative CPR method that they are banking on today. Lets not pretend it wasn't mutually beneficial.

 

If all the CPR went away tomorrow, CGC would still exist.

 

CPR needs CGC and other legitimate grading companies. CGC and other legitimate grading companies don't need CPR.

 

And "I love joeypost" threads didn't create CPR.

Of course CPR wouldn't go away. But if not for Joey doing the R&D and testing the market first, would CGC even be in the pressing game today?

 

It was a mutually beneficial deal. Not charity on behalf of CGC that only Joey was a beneficiary of.

 

I think your history is a bit off. The CPR game went on long before Joey was doing it.

Was anyone else a large and open vendor of such services, or was it some kind of secret amateur process done with zero information, zero disclosure, ect?

 

He legitimized the process, and made it safe, assuming he's insured. I doubt CGC would have in house pressing if not for the example set by Joey.

 

Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

[drbanner]

I doubt CGC would have in house pressing if not for the example set by Joey.

First the Chuck R thread, now this?

 

You really need to catch up on your "back issue" reading around here before making some of the crazy statements you've made in these threads...

[dupont2005]

Free advertising that somehow profited CGC thousands and thousands of dollars and created the very lucrative CPR method that they are banking on today. Lets not pretend it wasn't mutually beneficial.

 

If all the CPR went away tomorrow, CGC would still exist.

 

CPR needs CGC and other legitimate grading companies. CGC and other legitimate grading companies don't need CPR.

 

And "I love joeypost" threads didn't create CPR.

Of course CPR wouldn't go away. But if not for Joey doing the R&D and testing the market first, would CGC even be in the pressing game today?

 

Unequivocal yes.

 

There were professional pressers doing CPR before Joey. Joey didn't invent and develop the CPR market.

 

It was a mutually beneficial deal. Not charity on behalf of CGC that only Joey was a beneficiary of.

 

Of course it was mutually beneficial. But it was NOT an equal partnership. Again: CGC doesn't need CPR, and hasn't for the nearly 15 years they've been open, to be in business.

 

CPR. on the other hand, wouldn't exist without CGC.

How much has CPR added to submissions?

 

As a percentage, 20%? 30%?

 

It's not an insignificant growth.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's no different than a lawyer pumping himself on another law firm's site.

Not quite. For a while Joey was happily doing business on this board with full endorsement of CGC, until CGC eventually decided to provide the service themselves. It's more like a lawyer promoting his wares on a site owned by a guy thinking of one day going to law school maybe, and then years later when he actually graduates he deletes every mention of the previous lawyer.

 

Also, every time that previous lawyer handled a case, the law school student got paid, accumulating to countless thousands of dollars we can only speculate at the moment.

 

Except something happened. Joey became 'the official pressing service of CBCS Comics'.

 

So it's not the same.

 

If this is a fact how can people question CGC's motovation?

 

They are a business, first and foremost. These boards are a business expense that they continue to incur becuase they feel it's existence helps their profit.

 

Joey may be the nicest and finest presser around but if he works for a competitor the dynamic changes.

 

 

They can do this... but it is bush league.

 

What if the plastic supplier for their slabs decides to supply plastic to... that other company... as well?

 

Want to make it known the Joey that no advertisement will be allowed for... that other company... on this site? Great! Do so. Inform him privately (of something I'm sure he already knows, accepts, and understands) and there you are - handled in a professional manner.

 

This has been handled in a very bush league manner, I don't think anyone can deny that... and if they do deny it, I'd like to know on what grounds.

 

You're speculating. I can deny that that is "bush league", and my grounds are this: threads that are essentially advertisements for competition, or "semi-competition" shouldn't be allowed. Threads are deleted here all the time. "I love joeypost" threads were deleted before the last "I love joeypost" thread. CGC is a business, not a charity, and although I agree with Transplant's reasoning for why leeway for posting should be allowed, allowing advertising for others in threads is not good business.

 

That's not stopping CFP from buying ad space to run on the board.

 

No offense, but you're clearly wrong. Otherwise they would have done this as soon as they brought pressing services in-house.

 

That is an assumption you simply cannot make. Allowing threads that are advertisements for competition with CCS for a time does not therefore mean that should be continued indefinitely, and when it is finally ended, it is therefore "bush league."

[HighRadArt]

All I know is I hope my books were subbed before this train wreck waiting to happen got started.

 

Hopefully, the train will get back on track when the familia is no longer OOO.

[Foolkiller]

Free advertising that somehow profited CGC thousands and thousands of dollars and created the very lucrative CPR method that they are banking on today. Lets not pretend it wasn't mutually beneficial.

 

If all the CPR went away tomorrow, CGC would still exist.

 

CPR needs CGC and other legitimate grading companies. CGC and other legitimate grading companies don't need CPR.

 

And "I love joeypost" threads didn't create CPR.

Of course CPR wouldn't go away. But if not for Joey doing the R&D and testing the market first, would CGC even be in the pressing game today?

 

Unequivocal yes.

 

There were professional pressers doing CPR before Joey. Joey didn't invent and develop the CPR market.

 

It was a mutually beneficial deal. Not charity on behalf of CGC that only Joey was a beneficiary of.

 

Of course it was mutually beneficial. But it was NOT an equal partnership. Again: CGC doesn't need CPR, and hasn't for the nearly 15 years they've been open, to be in business.

 

CPR. on the other hand, wouldn't exist without CGC.

How much has CPR added to submissions?

 

As a percentage, 20%? 30%?

 

It's not an insignificant growth.

 

Let me be a bit more gentle about the history response.

 

Matt Nelson and Susan Cicconni were both doing pressing. Joey essentially saw opportunity that Matt was the only game in town and took it upon himself to do new techniques, and unlike others, actually do it as a business as Matt did.

 

Additionally, long, long before joey, in fact in the inception of CGC, it was ALWAYS the plan to open a pressing business. In fact, when Ewert hit and the original outcry about pressing started (it was less accepted circa 2004) CGC canned the idea -- it eventually obviously made its way back out. This isn't in dispute and borock himself would tell you it was always part of the plan, it just took them awhile to get to it.

[RockMyAmadeus]

CGC and other legitimate grading companies don't need CPR.

You haven't gotten anything this wrong in a long time.

 

Barring statistics, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

Just because some/many/most/nearly all (pick whatever suits) books subbed are cracked out of slabs and pressed in hopes of a higher grade does not therefore mean that CGC would not be in business without it.

 

The vast majority of my business is not CPR. In fact, I have cracked (or had customers crack) about 10 slabs, out of 1000+ pressed, in the past year.

[SquareChaos]

It's no different than a lawyer pumping himself on another law firm's site.

Not quite. For a while Joey was happily doing business on this board with full endorsement of CGC, until CGC eventually decided to provide the service themselves. It's more like a lawyer promoting his wares on a site owned by a guy thinking of one day going to law school maybe, and then years later when he actually graduates he deletes every mention of the previous lawyer.

 

Also, every time that previous lawyer handled a case, the law school student got paid, accumulating to countless thousands of dollars we can only speculate at the moment.

 

Except something happened. Joey became 'the official pressing service of CBCS Comics'.

 

So it's not the same.

 

If this is a fact how can people question CGC's motovation?

 

They are a business, first and foremost. These boards are a business expense that they continue to incur becuase they feel it's existence helps their profit.

 

Joey may be the nicest and finest presser around but if he works for a competitor the dynamic changes.

 

 

They can do this... but it is bush league.

 

What if the plastic supplier for their slabs decides to supply plastic to... that other company... as well?

 

Want to make it known the Joey that no advertisement will be allowed for... that other company... on this site? Great! Do so. Inform him privately (of something I'm sure he already knows, accepts, and understands) and there you are - handled in a professional manner.

 

This has been handled in a very bush league manner, I don't think anyone can deny that... and if they do deny it, I'd like to know on what grounds.

 

You're speculating. I can deny that that is "bush league", and my grounds are this: threads that are essentially advertisements for competition, or "semi-competition" shouldn't be allowed. Threads are deleted here all the time. "I love joeypost" threads were deleted before the last "I love joeypost" thread. CGC is a business, not a charity, and although I agree with Transplant's reasoning for why leeway for posting should be allowed, allowing advertising for others in threads is not good business.

 

That's not stopping CFP from buying ad space to run on the board.

 

No offense, but you're clearly wrong. Otherwise they would have done this as soon as they brought pressing services in-house.

 

That is an assumption you simply cannot make. Allowing threads that are advertisements for competition with CCS for a time does not therefore mean that should be continued indefinitely, and when it is finally ended, it is therefore "bush league."

 

This thread would be pretty quiet if all we could talk about is absolute truth, but I agree, it is an assumption.

 

However, can't you agree it is a reasonable one? The endorsement goes up, the link on his site goes up, and suddenly the all powerful hand of God comes down and wipes [edit: rewording to reflect intended meaning] him from the boards many of his threads off of the boards.

 

If, as you say, this is just a reaction (and a non-bush league one) to competition, why now? Why does it coincide with these other events?

 

So, if it isn't bush league, it is very coincidental timing.

 

For what it is worth, I agree with you and many others - the previous existence of the 'I love joeypost' thread was surprising to me. I'm new here, but it didn't take me long to realize that the same services were offered in house, so the references I saw to Joey and Mike were all surprising.

 

Make no mistake, I'm not on a witch hunt here, but the way I look at this, and all of the timing involved... it just looks bad.

[dupont2005]

Additionally, long, long before joey, in fact in the inception of CGC, it was ALWAYS the plan to open a pressing business. In fact, when Ewert hit and the original outcry about pressing started (it was less accepted circa 2004) CGC canned the idea -- it eventually obviously made its way back out. This isn't in dispute and borock himself would tell you it was always part of the plan, it just took them awhile to get to it.

I know this. They canned the idea, because at the time pressers were seen as shady non disclosing CPR restorers. Joey changed that perception (for many, not all) by being a spokesperson for pressing, by providing information, by providing transparency, by being there to answer questions and respond to customers. That, combined with mountains of good feedback, and an established marketplace that was more than a handful of guys in the garage potentially destroying comics, CGC decided the service was worth revisiting. Joey's contributions were valuable to CGC in legitimizing the craft. And it could have gone either way. If Joey had destroyed a valuable book early on, pressing may still be the anonymous non disclosed type of backdoor service done in whispers by flippers trying to make a buck. If he had destroyed the book and pressing had never been seen as legitimate by many converts, it wasn't egg on CGC's face. Joey goes out of business, or takes his service underground, and CGC keeps chugging along.

 

Now imagine if CGC had headed the CPR movement, and had destroyed a major book early on. They have insurance, they can pay FMV for a destroyed product, but how many people would be happy with a check when they thought they were getting a high grade GA key that was going to potentially double in value in a year? What if it happened to highest grade on census, and was irreplaceable? CGC as a business would have a tarnished record that probably wouldn't die overnight.

 

Now that pressing has so many success stories under it's belt, the possibility of destroying a high grade comic is still there, just as it is whenever a high grade comic is shipped, but it likely wouldn't be a scandal at this point, just an unfortunate risk of the business.

[RockMyAmadeus]

It's no different than a lawyer pumping himself on another law firm's site.

Not quite. For a while Joey was happily doing business on this board with full endorsement of CGC, until CGC eventually decided to provide the service themselves. It's more like a lawyer promoting his wares on a site owned by a guy thinking of one day going to law school maybe, and then years later when he actually graduates he deletes every mention of the previous lawyer.

 

Also, every time that previous lawyer handled a case, the law school student got paid, accumulating to countless thousands of dollars we can only speculate at the moment.

 

Except something happened. Joey became 'the official pressing service of CBCS Comics'.

 

So it's not the same.

 

If this is a fact how can people question CGC's motovation?

 

They are a business, first and foremost. These boards are a business expense that they continue to incur becuase they feel it's existence helps their profit.

 

Joey may be the nicest and finest presser around but if he works for a competitor the dynamic changes.

 

 

They can do this... but it is bush league.

 

What if the plastic supplier for their slabs decides to supply plastic to... that other company... as well?

 

Want to make it known the Joey that no advertisement will be allowed for... that other company... on this site? Great! Do so. Inform him privately (of something I'm sure he already knows, accepts, and understands) and there you are - handled in a professional manner.

 

This has been handled in a very bush league manner, I don't think anyone can deny that... and if they do deny it, I'd like to know on what grounds.

 

You're speculating. I can deny that that is "bush league", and my grounds are this: threads that are essentially advertisements for competition, or "semi-competition" shouldn't be allowed. Threads are deleted here all the time. "I love joeypost" threads were deleted before the last "I love joeypost" thread. CGC is a business, not a charity, and although I agree with Transplant's reasoning for why leeway for posting should be allowed, allowing advertising for others in threads is not good business.

 

That's not stopping CFP from buying ad space to run on the board.

 

No offense, but you're clearly wrong. Otherwise they would have done this as soon as they brought pressing services in-house.

 

That is an assumption you simply cannot make. Allowing threads that are advertisements for competition with CCS for a time does not therefore mean that should be continued indefinitely, and when it is finally ended, it is therefore "bush league."

 

This thread would be pretty quiet if all we could talk about is absolute truth, but I agree, it is an assumption.

 

However, can't you agree it is a reasonable one? The endorsement goes up, the link on his site goes up, and suddenly the all powerful hand of God comes down and wipes [edit: rewording to reflect intended meaning] him from the boards many of his threads off of the boards.

 

If, as you say, this is just a reaction (and a non-bush league one) to competition, why now? Why does it coincide with these other events?

 

So, if it isn't bush league, it is very coincidental timing.

 

For what it is worth, I agree with you and many others - the previous existence of the 'I love joeypost' thread was surprising to me. I'm new here, but it didn't take me long to realize that the same services were offered in house, so the references I saw to Joey and Mike were all surprising.

 

Make no mistake, I'm not on a witch hunt here, but the way I look at this, and all of the timing involved... it just looks bad.

 

I don't think anyone has disputed, at all...definitely not me...that this "wipe" was a reaction to competitive announcements of one sort or another.

 

But as has been stated before, this was a while in coming, and not unexpected.

 

The issue isn't that CGC did it. The issue is the overwhelming "OMG, how TACKY CGC!!!" reaction to it.

 

It makes no sense. Instead of being grateful for it being allowed for so long, instead they're angry that it was handled in a way that didn't suit them?

 

What was CGC supposed to do, issue a statement? They already did. Harsen stated several weeks ago, in no uncertain terms, that threads openly advertising competition would not be tolerated...

 

...and yet, everyone's up in arms because they finally do what they should have done a while ago, and openly said they were going to do?

 

:shrug:

 

Everyone should be grateful that it was allowed to go on as long as it did. That should be the perspective. It was very generous of CGC to allow it for as long as they did.

[Foolkiller]

Additionally, long, long before joey, in fact in the inception of CGC, it was ALWAYS the plan to open a pressing business. In fact, when Ewert hit and the original outcry about pressing started (it was less accepted circa 2004) CGC canned the idea -- it eventually obviously made its way back out. This isn't in dispute and borock himself would tell you it was always part of the plan, it just took them awhile to get to it.

I know this. They canned the idea, because at the time pressers were seen as shady non disclosing CPR restorers. Joey changed that perception (for many, not all) by being a spokesperson for pressing, by providing information, by providing transparency, by being there to answer questions and respond to customers. That, combined with mountains of good feedback, and an established marketplace that was more than a handful of guys in the garage potentially destroying comics, CGC decided the service was worth revisiting. Joey's contributions were valuable to CGC in legitimizing the craft. And it could have gone either way. If Joey had destroyed a valuable book early on, pressing may still be the anonymous non disclosed type of backdoor service done in whispers by flippers trying to make a buck.

 

This is incorrect.

 

Joey did nothing to change the perception. Matt had been doing it long before Joe publicly.

 

Also, CGC canned it because of the conflict of interest it was going to create (they had more of a problem with this back then).

[RockMyAmadeus]

Additionally, long, long before joey, in fact in the inception of CGC, it was ALWAYS the plan to open a pressing business. In fact, when Ewert hit and the original outcry about pressing started (it was less accepted circa 2004) CGC canned the idea -- it eventually obviously made its way back out. This isn't in dispute and borock himself would tell you it was always part of the plan, it just took them awhile to get to it.

I know this. They canned the idea, because at the time pressers were seen as shady non disclosing CPR restorers. Joey changed that perception (for many, not all) by being a spokesperson for pressing, by providing information, by providing transparency, by being there to answer questions and respond to customers. That, combined with mountains of good feedback, and an established marketplace that was more than a handful of guys in the garage potentially destroying comics, CGC decided the service was worth revisiting. Joey's contributions were valuable to CGC in legitimizing the craft. And it could have gone either way. If Joey had destroyed a valuable book early on, pressing may still be the anonymous non disclosed type of backdoor service done in whispers by flippers trying to make a buck.

 

This isn't true. Sorry.

[SquareChaos]

I don't think anyone has disputed, at all...definitely not me...that this "wipe" was a reaction to competitive announcements of one sort or another.

 

But as has been stated before, this was a while in coming, and not unexpected.

 

The issue isn't that CGC did it. The issue is the overwhelming "OMG, how TACKY CGC!!!" reaction to it.

 

It makes no sense. Instead of being grateful for it being allowed for so long, instead they're angry that it was handled in a way that didn't suit them?

 

What was CGC supposed to do, issue a statement? They already did. Harsen stated several weeks ago, in no uncertain terms, that threads openly advertising competition would not be tolerated...

 

...and yet, everyone's up in arms because they finally do what they should have done a while ago?

 

:shrug:

 

Everyone should be grateful that it was allowed to go on as long as it did. That should be the perspective. It was very generous of CGC to allow it for as long as they did.

 

I better understand your point of view now. I still disagree, but I get where you're coming from :thumbsup:

[dupont2005]

Also, CGC canned it because of the conflict of interest it was going to create (they had more of a problem with this back then).

What happened to that conflict of interest?

[TheShadowKnows]

When should we expect that the Ebay banner ads and affiliate links will disappear? Pretty soon we'll see CBCS books there as well.

 

Same for every auction house that advertises here.

Saw the my first CBCS book on ebay today

[BlowUpTheMoon]

I don't think anyone has disputed, at all...definitely not me...that this "wipe" was a reaction to competitive announcements of one sort or another.

 

But as has been stated before, this was a while in coming, and not unexpected.

 

The issue isn't that CGC did it. The issue is the overwhelming "OMG, how TACKY CGC!!!" reaction to it.

 

It makes no sense. Instead of being grateful for it being allowed for so long, instead they're angry that it was handled in a way that didn't suit them?

 

What was CGC supposed to do, issue a statement? They already did. Harsen stated several weeks ago, in no uncertain terms, that threads openly advertising competition would not be tolerated...

 

...and yet, everyone's up in arms because they finally do what they should have done a while ago?

 

:shrug:

 

Everyone should be grateful that it was allowed to go on as long as it did. That should be the perspective. It was very generous of CGC to allow it for as long as they did.

 

+