Is CGC trying to lose their dealers as well? 11 11

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2022 at 2:04 PM, shadroch said:

I've been hearing people call PGX a fly-by-night company operating out of someones garage for the last twenty years. 

It's a pretty nice garage though

[theCapraAegagrus]

On 1/12/2022 at 2:10 PM, William-James88 said:

It's a pretty nice garage though

Their website is very robust.

[ExNihilo]

On 1/11/2022 at 5:21 AM, CGC Mike said:

Lets keep this discussion civil, please.  

Serious question, I've seen an uptick in negative comments towards CGC lately here on these boards and elsewhere (ie Reddit).  A lot of this has to do with what I perceive to be an increase in the number of customers reporting questionable quality control.  We're talking mislabeled books, loose plastic in slabs, the occasional loose inner well, etc.  These are all things that should be caught during the Quality Control phase of grading.  Is CGC taking the criticism into account and are there steps being taken to tighten quality.  These small things are the types of things that chip away at customer confidence and satisfaction.  And it's that confidence that is the only thing that elevates CGC above its competitors.  Remember, trust and confidence take years to build, but can be destroyed in a day.  Unless CGC wants to see more people switch preferred graders, I strongly suggest the team take the complaints of those here seriously.

On 1/11/2022 at 9:51 AM, blazingbob said:

Mark my words in a few years CCG will be going public.

Isn't Blackrock already a publicly owned company?

On 1/11/2022 at 12:25 PM, I like pie said:

One of many reasons competition is good for the hobby. Right now, there is no viable company on the same level as CGC.

Voldy was close but too unstable, over the years. I don't see them ever getting over that stigma.

The only reason I don't like "the other company" is because they give a yellow label for unwitnessed signatures.  If not for that, I wouldn't see a difference between the two companies.  They've both gone through periods of tight and loose grading.  They both have large TAT at the moment.  They're both similar with the exception that CGC books have higher resale value.  But if you're a collector with no interest in resale, then that last part won't matter and the only thing that will are how accurate the grades are.

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2022 at 2:23 PM, theCapraAegagrus said:

Their website is very robust.

I was wondering how desperate people were for getting their books slabbed in these times. 

According to their site, seems like people are not that desperate:

On 1/12/2022 at 2:30 PM, ExNihilo said:

Isn't Blackrock already a publicly owned company?

Firstly, it's Blackstone, not Blackrock (BIG difference, Blackrock practically owns the world)

Secondly, a publicly traded company can have an independent subsidiary (of which they own 100% of the shares of) go public. It's a way of selling that subsidiary to the public rather than someone else. So what people are saying here is that the plan could be to make CGC look super profitable and then pitch it to a financial firm to shop it around and figure out a nice IPO (the amount of money it will be sold for to the public initially). Whether the stock price then goes down no longer matters to Blackstone since they would have all the money from the people who bought shares in CGC.

I can't think of another example of this method being done for other companies off the top of my head but I know it is not uncommon to see happen. 

On 1/12/2022 at 2:30 PM, ExNihilo said:

 These small things are the types of things that chip away at customer confidence and satisfaction.  And it's that confidence that is the only thing that elevates CGC above its competitors. 

I like seeing this reasoning but it's too idealistic and not an accurate depiction of what really matters to people. In the end, it's just money. At this moment in time, what elevates CGC above its competitors is only that it helps books achieve a higher hammer price. 

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by William-James88

[ExNihilo]

On 1/12/2022 at 11:40 AM, William-James88 said:

Secondly, a publicly traded company can have an independent subsidiary (of which they own 100% of the shares of) go public. It's a way of selling that subsidiary to the public rather than someone else. So what people are saying here is that the plan could be to make CGC look super profitable and then pitch it to a financial firm to shop it around and figure out a nice IPO (the amount of money it will be sold for to the public initially). Whether the stock price then goes down no longer matters to Blackstone since they would have all the money from the people who bought shares in CGC.

I can't think of another example of this method being done for other companies off the top of my head but I know it is not uncommon to see happen. 

I've never heard of this.  That's such an odd thing, I'm surprised the SEC allows it.  All subsidiary's report up to the parent entity (Blackstone) so it would be weird to have a separate publicly traded stock for a child entity who then also reports its numbers.

[Stronguy]

On 1/12/2022 at 1:45 PM, ExNihilo said:

I've never heard of this.  That's such an odd thing, I'm surprised the SEC allows it.  All subsidiary's report up to the parent entity (Blackstone) so it would be weird to have a separate publicly traded stock for a child entity who then also reports its numbers.

Sprint had something similar in the late '90s.  They had FON which was the overall company and they had PCS which was a tracking stock exclusively for the wireless sector.  I'm not sure if or how PCS rolled up into FON.

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2022 at 2:45 PM, ExNihilo said:

I've never heard of this.  That's such an odd thing, I'm surprised the SEC allows it.  All subsidiary's report up to the parent entity (Blackstone) so it would be weird to have a separate publicly traded stock for a child entity who then also reports its numbers.

I found the example. You know how Sears was all messed up, but the guy at the head of it created another company, subsidiary to Sears which bought all of Sear's land and charged Sears for rent. Yes, it was essentially the same parent company owning both sears and this other subsidiary and just transfering assets. But then they made that subsidiary go public.

The big cigarette company that owns Du Morier also made their international division go public as a seperate publicly traded company.

[wombat]

Buy company for xx amount of dollars. Work their magic to make it look like an awesome company. Sell company for a profit. 

 

[shadroch]

It's very common. 

[William-James88]

@ExNihilo the financial term is called spinoff. It's one of the many ways big companies with capital keep making money (definitely better than a leveraged buyout or hostile takeover). 

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/spinoff.asp

Not saying this is what Blackstone has in mind, none of us know this, just letting people know what others are referring to. But regardless of what Blackstone intends to do with CGC, it's all about the bottom line now.

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by William-James88

[Prince Namor]

On 1/12/2022 at 11:00 AM, MAR1979 said:

I truly wanted CBCS to succeed as folks like me benefit from true competition in the industry, but they put on clinic in what not to do.

Their Business plan needed to have included;

- Forecast and Expect to take losses their first 5-6 years of operation (Amazon did for at least that long)

- Charge enough lower than CGC to ensure submitter's  give you a try.  A dollar or 2 less won't do it. $4-5 might, then see rule #1

- Grade noticeably stricter than CGC and maintain that. This item is paramount. At first some will be "disgruntled" then slowly you will build reputation and positive perception.

CBCS did not do any of that.  Those who know Barock also know he is flipper of the highest order. The flipper mentality is a short-sighted and always for "the now".. It does not work well with a viable long term business plan. Yeah Borack has done OK for himself, no argument there, however both him and CBCS could have been the industry standard and leader raking more than CGC at this juncture in time, instead of being an also ran.

As result of their short-sighted vision the perception of CBCS will never ever change.

 

P.S.   I have 14 books in the CBCS slabs, All 9.8's, only 4 of which i think are deserving of the number on the label. The rest fall rather short IMHO. I also looked at at least 50 other of their slabs at cons.  I gave them a fair shot but I was very disappointed.

In the end, none of this will deter the overwhelming number of submissions sent in to CBCS.

[Prince Namor]

On 1/12/2022 at 2:59 PM, wombat said:

Buy company for xx amount of dollars. Work their magic to make it look like an awesome company. Sell company for a profit. 

 

I wonder if they call THEM 'flippers'?

[MAR1979]

On 1/12/2022 at 2:04 PM, shadroch said:

I've been hearing people call PGX a fly-by-night company operating out of someones garage for the last twenty years. 

I've seen their slabs over the years. Have stopped looking them after almost never seeing one for which the book inside the slab is worthy of the grade on the label.

Here is SWAG percentages for the times that by viewing the the book through the slab that I feel the label is too high a grade:
CGC 25-30
CBCS 75-80
PGX 95-99

The lower the number the better.  As they say Your Mileage May Vary

 

 

Edited January 12, 2022 by MAR1979

[EastEnd1]

Investment firms usually try to sell first.  Taking the entity public is usually a back up plan if they can't find a buyer(s) willing to pay their price.  An outright sale is clean... IPO's are heavily regulated, take a long time, and are subject to the vagaries of the market.

Publicly traded subsidiaries are neither illegal nor uncommon.  Large company's tend to avoid them because you give up some control and they add regulatory complexity and cost.  You often see it in situations where a sub is doing really well while the overall group is sucking wind.  The idea is to make the underlying sub's success more visible to the market and hopefully drive it's stock price up.  If the sub goes up, then theoretically the parent, as majority owner, should be worth more too.

[blazingbob]

Wow I put out there the possibility of a "bigger picture IPO down the road" and now everybody is a investment banker.

Anybody see the recent sale of Topps?

You think the sports card market is dead?

Unless you have access to the financial books all of this is pure IMAGINATION.

There have been plenty of examples of polishing the turd and bringing it public  

Edited January 12, 2022 by blazingbob

[shadroch]

On 1/12/2022 at 1:16 PM, MAR1979 said:

I've seen their slabs over the years. Have stopped looking them after almost never seeing one for which the book inside the slab is worthy of the grade on the label.

Here is SWAG percentages for the times that by viewing the the book through the slab that I feel the label is too high a grade:
CGC 25-30
CBCS 75-80
PGX 95-99

The lower the number the better.  As they say Your Mileage May Vary

 

 

86% of stats are BS and most of the other 54% are worthless.

[GACollectibles]

On 1/12/2022 at 3:24 PM, blazingbob said:

Wow I put out there the possibility of a "bigger picture IPO down the road" and now everybody is a investment banker.

I'm not an investment banker, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[kimik]

On 1/12/2022 at 1:29 PM, shadroch said:

86% of stats are BS and most of the other 54% are worthless.

What about the other 93%?

[Mystafo]

On 1/11/2022 at 8:28 PM, Lord Gemini said:

And these people I just don't understand. If I want to read a high price book, I'll read a reprint or a low grade copy.

Unfortunately, the book can "de-grade," if you will, inside the slab.  Movement of the book inside the well and pages pulled away from staples caused me to first start storing my slabs flat, horizontally and then removing keepers from slabs entirely and putting them in my own mylar setup where those possibilities are much mitigated (if not eliminated).

Edited January 12, 2022 by Mystafo

[shadroch]

On 1/12/2022 at 1:35 PM, kimik said:

What about the other 93%?