Is CGC trying to lose their dealers as well? 11 11

[VintageComics]

On 1/11/2022 at 12:01 PM, namisgr said:

And, as pointed out already, the hobby exists without CGC but not without the back issue dealers.

No.

Not the entire hobby. Try buying a raw AF #15 in high grade and paying FMV.  If somehow, slabbed books were to be outlawed in some fictional realty the entire market would collapse for any book that needed a certified grade on it to sell.

On 1/11/2022 at 12:01 PM, namisgr said:

But in the end, it'll boil down to the response to the changes to CGC prices and policies - when their net profit from slabbing comics begins to decline then they'll be impacted, and when that impact is large enough then their pricing and policy changes toward large volume submitters will be reconsidered.

Nope. Prices don't go down generally speaking in a field like this. This isn't oil in a barrel.

Remember when airlines temporarily raised prices to compensate for rising fuel prices.

[october]

On 1/12/2022 at 5:47 AM, namisgr said:

Which card grading service is realizing the best prices in the marketplace?  Asking for a friend...

In sports? Generally PSA, but BVG is catching up for moderns and SGC is catching up for vintage. 

This doesn't make much sense, by the way. PSA's product is inferior and they have had to weather multiple scandals...most notably the first card they every graded (the PSA 8 Wagner that was sheet cut).

Edited January 12, 2022 by october

[GACollectibles]

On 1/12/2022 at 12:12 AM, NewWorldOrder said:

I agree with you what said.  However, there is no way most raw collectors will pay CGC 9.4 prices for a raw books for the same price just less CGC costs on expensive books.  I am not talking about a ASM #301 in Fine condition here    The reason I was in disagreement with the other boardie is he referred to CGC 9.8's.  That he can sell for $80 and the CGC 9.8 sells for $100.  

Just because you don't deal with people who buy like that doesn't mean it isn't happening, it happens on a large scale all the time, whether it due to supply factors, trust of seller and the fact that CGC is not an absolute.  There used to be a big difference between the raw and graded prices of the same high books, that gap has narrowed significantly as people paid more then got the books slabbed, or had to pay more to get the books they wanted and didn't need them slabbed, as a couple of examples.

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2022 at 6:47 AM, namisgr said:

Which card grading service is realizing the best prices in the marketplace?  Asking for a friend...

For high grade Pokemon and Magic, it's CGC. They grade more strictly than the competition and are redefining what a 10.0 is

Edited January 12, 2022 by William-James88

[namisgr]

On 1/12/2022 at 12:12 AM, kimik said:

Even then, it is not a strong public company concept. Maybe if they can automate grading and encapsulation then you can scale by adding more lines of bots that work 24/7, but until then it will only be as scalable as the number of trained graders and encapsulators they can hire and retain.

"You want to see a very bad man? Make an ordinary man successful beyond his imagination. Let’s see how good he is when he can do whatever he wants." 
- Min Jin Lee, Pachinko 

[D2]

On 1/12/2022 at 8:13 AM, Sigur Ros said:

You were literally told by a mod to keep it civil.

 

You:  "This is the most popular forum for the hobby!"

Also you: "OMG! Why are you here?"

 

For having no skin, you are by far the most invested in the conversation.

Take care.

lol!

It is so typical to see how someone who isn’t even interested in CGC products, on a forum complaining about the company. 
 

The irony in it is just too much to ignore. 
Clearly you wouldn’t see that. 

[1Cool]

On 1/11/2022 at 6:26 PM, october said:

I have gone from hundreds of books a year sent to CGC, to dozens, to zero in 2021. I don't see that changing anytime soon with turnaround times and fees in a breakneck race to see which can end up worse.

I went from sending in my best 100 - 150 books every year and I've not sent in a single book over the last year or so.  The graders are ultra strict, grading prices are up huge, Fedex lost my last package, turn around times have doubled has prompted me to not renew my membership.  I still enjoy the boards but for the foreseeable future I will concentrate on raw books and leave slabbing books to others.

Edited January 12, 2022 by 1Cool

[october]

On 1/12/2022 at 8:08 AM, 1Cool said:

I went from sending in my best 100 - 150 books every year and I've not sent in a single book over the last year or so.  The graders are ultra strict, prices are up huge, Fedex lost my last package, turn around times have doubled has prompted me to not renew my membership.  I still enjoy the boards but for the foreseeable future I will concentrate on raw books and leave grading books to others.

Same. The grading roulette and insane TATs killed it. I'll take a price haircut on selling raw and let someone else deal with the circus.

[EastEnd1]

Virtually all of my raw eBay listings are priced off of GPA graded prices.  I don't find it that difficult to get GPA less a discount for grading costs and the situations where I have to discount more than that are more than offset by situations where I get full GPA or better.  I had two just sell overnight in fact, one discounted less than grading costs and one for more than current GPA.  I did about 300 comic transactions last year and about 70% of my overall listings sold this way.  It's rare that a comic of any significance doesn't sell for me.  What hasn't sold after a year, I mostly consign to a local auction house to liquidate.  If there's anything a bit more pricey in the leftovers, I will send those into CGC so I can consign them with Comiclink. 

Admittedly, it does takes time to build your reputation to get results like this.  I've been at it on eBay since 2014, but over time have amassed very strong feedback and a pretty good reputation for grading and service.  I used to submit books worth over $200 to CGC prior to listing them.  Now I only submit books worth over $1000.  This is just my experience..   

[Yeahiwasder4dat]

On 1/12/2022 at 9:00 AM, William-James88 said:

For high grade Pokemon and Magic, it's CGC. They grade more strictly than the competition and are redefining what a 10.0 is

No dice on that one. PSA for Pokemon, and probably still BGS for MTG. I don't deal in MTG cards so haven't kept up, but they were the preferred by a long shot at one point. If you look for listings the vast majority are BGS graded compared to PSA. PSA still way over CGC, looking at base set Charizards in a 9 PSA doing around $1k-1.1. CGC 9 sold for $875 or lower on offer.

[William-James88]

On 1/12/2022 at 9:45 AM, Yeahiwasder4dat said:

PSA still way over CGC, looking at base set Charizards in a 9 PSA doing around $1k-1.1. CGC 9 sold for $875 or lower on offer.

I talked about 10s, not 9s

Do PSA 10s sell for more than CGC 10s? I heard they didn't.

[Bookery]

On 1/12/2022 at 12:12 AM, NewWorldOrder said:

I  The reason I was in disagreement with the other boardie is he referred to CGC 9.8's.  That he can sell for $80 and the CGC 9.8 sells for $100.  

No, I most certainly did not.  I even stated I do not grade raw books higher than 9.4 (and price accordingly).  9.6s and 9.8s are essentially grades invented by the slabbing industry, almost as if they are proprietary products.  If you want to collect 9.8s, then yes, of course you will have to buy a slabbed product.  Again-- I am not a CGC detractor.  There are plenty of reasons to collect slabs, just as there are plenty of reasons not to.  And... most collectors likely have some of both in their inventories.  My main point is that there are raw graders out there that customers trust every bit as much as a CGC product.  Not just me.  I suspect the regular customers of blazingbob, TonyS, Joey, and others, are as trusting of their grades as they are of slabbed products.  My only point is that CGC is a useful collecting tool... but is in itself not "vital" to the hobby as has been stated.  CGC was born to protect against the many incompetent or unscrupulous graders that exist in any hobby.  But for those with a reputation for competent grading, it's not such a big deal.

[Yeahiwasder4dat]

On 1/12/2022 at 9:52 AM, William-James88 said:

I talked about 10s, not 9s

Do PSA 10s sell for more than CGC 10s? I heard they didn't.

By high grade I took that as 9, 9.5, 10 not specifically a 10. As few as CGC gives out, it might be similar to a black label from BGS and get more money. Hard to compare as there aren't many CGC 10s sold and the ones that I've seen mostly say best offer accepted so don't know the actual sell price.

PSA 10 gets more than the equivalent 9.5 CGC, and BGS. Stands to reason a perfect/pristine 10 would pull more but a lot of it probably depends on the card itself as well and how highly sought after it would be.

He should probably check this thread or card section. I would consider 8.5-9 still higher end of graded cards but it'll highlight some of the discrepancies with what's an 8.5 if he's considering getting cards graded. Last sub should be delivered today and I'll use some of those to highlight the issue.

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/501254-biggest-crossgrade-test-against-all-other-grading-companies-look-here-before-you-cross-grade/

Edited January 12, 2022 by Yeahiwasder4dat

[F For Fake]

I am not a "real" dealer, so my opinion doesn't count for much, but it FEELS like the $200 wouldn't be a huge ask IF anything had actually improved in recent memory. If CGC was killing it, knocking down TAT's and acing quality control, the $200 would probably go down a lot easier. As it is, TAT's are ridiculously bad, there's a decent chance your books could be seriously damaged during the process meant to preserve them, and if they survive that gauntlet, your "new" cases may arrived scratched/cracked/containing hairs, with who knows what on the label. Meanwhile, submission fees have gone up twice in the last year. This $200 is just an extra kick in nards.

I stopped subbing, for the most part, when CGC changed the holder, and terms such as "creep engine" and "newton rings" entered my vocabulary. In the years that have passed, I have not been suitably convinced that things are getting much better. Now we have the fiasco with TAT's, and the host of other QC issues piling up day after day. I subbed two books this year. I can't imagine when I'll sub again, maybe...never?

Like I said, I'm not a real dealer. CGC isn't going to notice if I stop subbing altogether, as I'm almost to that point anyway. But if all of the dealers got together, and paused submissions until CGC righted the ship, well, CGC might notice that. If they're going to treat you like "employees", maybe it's time to unionize and go on strike.

[sckao]

You probably cannot ever grade a comic book automatically via AI/computer using current grading standards, but I can’t currently see why you couldn’t actually grade cards automatically eventually. (Or through most of the process.)

This part of the organization COULD scale. Blackstone may not have purchased the company mainly for the comic book industry when the NFT market or other segments may show much more promise or scalability.

 

[Bookery]

On 1/12/2022 at 12:12 AM, NewWorldOrder said:

I do not think any person who isnt high on crack cocaine would pay me the same money for a raw Hulk #181 that I grade at NM over a CGC copy in CGC 9.4 only buying merely saving on the CGC cost alone.  Unless the seller is guaranteeing that if I get it graded if it does not come back at least a CGC 9.4 I can get my money back.  I fully understand CGC isnt for everyone and can over grade sometimes, but the hobby still ranks them as #1 for grading so why take the risk for the same price versus a dealer who may have over graded the raw copy.  

I also never understand when people think you can't just crack out the CGC book and read it, but at least you know you have a NM unrestored copy versus rolling the dice buying it raw before you get it graded. 

Well, in this day and age it's pretty unlikely a raw NM Hulk 181 would come to me anyway (a different story 20 years ago)... most likely it will already be slabbed.  But like I said, CGC is a useful tool.  I don't use it often anymore myself... but I DO use it.  As an example, the last book I sent in was a Giant-Size X-Men #1.  I graded it a 7.5.  My concern, however, was that the way it was bound it had a bit of overhang that I feared would be damaged over time if pulled in and out of a mylar bag.  So I sent it off to CGC, and behold, it came back a 7.5.  But now it's better protected than I could have provided.  And I agree with you above on the one point... if you absolutely must own an ultra-high grade copy of an expensive key, it would be foolish to read and handle it when you could read a reprint of a lesser-grade copy.

But for graders/sellers like myself, we are still talking about a very small percentage of cases that fit the scenarios above.  Especially with golden-age.  Most books that I come across are going to be in the 3.0 to 6.0 range, and customers really do want to flip through them... especially obscure and rare books that generally don't have reprints.  I also don't press books (nothing against it... just don't have the time to do it or to learn how to do it in a professional manner... so I leave that to the professionals).  So the advantage of many raws, even if priced near CGC levels, is that customers may feel they can press and upgrade them.  And it's also a matter of level of book.  I used the example of getting $800 raw for a book that would get $1000 slabbed, or even $70-$80 for a $100 book.  But as books get below that level, it's a different story.  A $30 slabbed book would, if raw, probably go in my $4-$10 boxes, since at that end of the spectrum, a big chunk of the value is indeed the slabbing itself.

[THE_BEYONDER]

On 1/12/2022 at 10:19 AM, F For Fake said:

I am not a "real" dealer, so my opinion doesn't count for much, but it FEELS like the $200 wouldn't be a huge ask IF anything had actually improved in recent memory. If CGC was killing it, knocking down TAT's and acing quality control, the $200 would probably go down a lot easier. As it is, TAT's are ridiculously bad, there's a decent chance your books could be seriously damaged during the process meant to preserve them, and if they survive that gauntlet, your "new" cases may arrived scratched/cracked/containing hairs, with who knows what on the label. Meanwhile, submission fees have gone up twice in the last year. This $200 is just an extra kick in nards.

I stopped subbing, for the most part, when CGC changed the holder, and terms such as "creep engine" and "newton rings" entered my vocabulary. In the years that have passed, I have not been suitably convinced that things are getting much better. Now we have the fiasco with TAT's, and the host of other QC issues piling up day after day. I subbed two books this year. I can't imagine when I'll sub again, maybe...never?

Like I said, I'm not a real dealer. CGC isn't going to notice if I stop subbing altogether, as I'm almost to that point anyway. But if all of the dealers got together, and paused submissions until CGC righted the ship, well, CGC might notice that. If they're going to treat you like "employees", maybe it's time to unionize and go on strike.

This nicely sums up the current situation  

[kimik]

On 1/12/2022 at 4:32 AM, blazingbob said:

Are you looking at this from just the comics perspective?

They just graded 1 million cards,  do you know how profitable grading cards is?  A lot more then comics I bet.  2 dimensional grading,  no counting of pages.  Grading probably takes less then a minute.  Printing money.  

Again, Blackstone doesn't invest 500 million into a business not expecting to shine it up and move on later.  

This isn't the convention business model

No, but it is not very scalable either right now on the card side (if they can fully automate that, then it will be). That is why it is a better as a private play in my view if it truly is a cash cow. Going public adds another level of scrutiny and reporting, and they would have to open the books. 

[kimik]

On 1/12/2022 at 8:24 AM, sckao said:

You probably cannot ever grade a comic book automatically via AI/computer using current grading standards, but I can’t currently see why you couldn’t actually grade cards automatically eventually. (Or through most of the process.)

This part of the organization COULD scale. Blackstone may not have purchased the company mainly for the comic book industry when the NFT market or other segments may show much more promise or scalability.

 

It was definitely not for the comics side of the business. It could be possible to automate card grading with AI (e.g. centering/cut edges/other damage easy to detect visually, use machine learning to build database for grading reference, etc.), and that would be a game changer. Maybe in that case CGC is spun out/sold off?

[Bookery]

On 1/12/2022 at 6:32 AM, blazingbob said:

Are you looking at this from just the comics perspective?

They just graded 1 million cards,  do you know how profitable grading cards is?  A lot more then comics I bet.  2 dimensional grading,  no counting of pages.  Grading probably takes less then a minute.  Printing money.  

Again, Blackstone doesn't invest 500 million into a business not expecting to shine it up and move on later.  

This isn't the convention business model

Yes... I think folks here forget that comics are just a portion of the Blackstone package.  Besides cards, video games, posters, and comics, CGC will be grading pulps later this year.  It's possible Blackstone sees a potential for even more products down the road... the idea may be to make CGC the largest grading company of collectibles in general.