The story of a promise made during the Korean War 9 9

[Straw-Man]

On 2/21/2022 at 3:50 PM, MrBedrock said:

Sorry to distill your post down to this simple statement, but I think it is the crux of the issue. These two sentences cannot be proven to be true, and further my personal opinion is that equating them is actually completely false. Books of this grade coming available in this economy at this particular time would have sold for tremendous multiples even if they had been named "The Billy Parker's FACE Collection".

sales thread at 7, central, tonite!!!!

Edited February 21, 2022 by Straw-Man

[MrBedrock]

On 2/21/2022 at 3:46 PM, D84 said:

I usually make up relate my life stories involving hookers and blow.

fixed

[MrBedrock]

On 2/21/2022 at 4:32 PM, szav said:

On 2/21/2022 at 4:24 PM, MrBedrock said:

On 2/21/2022 at 3:46 PM, D84 said:

I usually make up relate my life stories involving hookers and blow and using the fragments of the cracked open slab of an Action Comics #1 CGC 6.0 when I couldn’t find a mirror or glass table.

fixed

Fixed your fix for you.

[path4play]

On 2/21/2022 at 4:50 PM, MrBedrock said:

Sorry to distill your post down to this simple statement, but I think it is the crux of the issue. These two sentences cannot be proven to be true, and further my personal opinion is that equating them is actually completely false. Books of this grade coming available in this economy at this particular time would have sold for tremendous multiples even if they had been named "The Billy Parker's FACE Collection".

Thanks for trying to make me feel better.  But I'm pretty certain at least a couple of these ungraded copies I can find for less.  Not all, but a few.

[Tri-Color Brian]

I think the most important lesson any of us can take away from this discussion is:  If you bought comics when you were a kid, and continued to collect them...write the story of why you bought your comics in the first place.  Write the story of what obsessed you to keep them and continue buying them.  Also, write your name on them, or find an interesting little stamp to stamp them with (like a rocket or something).  Then, no one in the future will accuse you of having OCD when your collection becomes a pedigree...

Note to self:  Find a little snake stamp to put on the back cover of my OO books, which will someday be known as the "Snake Collection"...

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Tri-ColorBrian

[tth2]

On 2/22/2022 at 2:06 AM, Bookery said:

On 2/22/2022 at 12:50 AM, sfcityduck said:

Edgar Church and the compiler of the Cosmic Aeroplane pedigree collected comics because he used them as art references.

Not to take away from your larger points, but just wanted to add a thought on the Church collection.  I've always been rather skeptical of the "art reference" story about this.  Oh, I've no doubt that's why he originally began picking them up.  But if you use something as a reference... you use it.  That's why Marvel bullpen file copies are often in rough shape.  It's clear the Church copies, once stacked into their piles, were never looked at again, assuming they were perused even once.  I suspect it began as a "hey, I'll use these for reference in my own art", to eventually, I've got all these, now I must keep obtaining them.  Again, it would appear (though we can't know) that the owner got very little joy from them other than satisfying the need to amass them (specifically when knowing there were at one point thousands of other pulps and magazines that required dumpsters to clear out).

This

[lou_fine]

On 2/21/2022 at 1:30 PM, path4play said:

I paid 3x guide for 7 ungraded copies and 2 graded of Police Comics (which typically sell for under guide) without anymore information - but would like to know exactly how several got water stains.  Its always been buyer beware.

By ungraded, do you mean that they were not certified and graded by CGC, but rather simply a raw book graded by Heritage staff which is actually quite common for some of their lesser books or many of the books which they have in their Sunday/Monday weekly auctions?  

There shouldn't be an issue with this as long as the certified grades by CGC or the raw grades by the Heritage staff have hopefully taken the water stains into account when they came up with the final grade for the books.    

Edited February 22, 2022 by lou_fine

[path4play]

On 2/22/2022 at 1:43 AM, lou_fine said:

By ungraded, do you mean that they were not certified and graded by CGC, but rather simply a raw book graded by Heritage staff which is actually quite common for some of their lesser books or many of the books which they have in their Sunday/Monday weekly auctions?  

There shouldn't be an issue with this as long as the certified grades by CGC or the raw grades by the Heritage staff have hopefully taken the water stains into account when they came up with the final grade for the books.    

No issue per sea, and really apologize for taking an interesting thread off tangent. 

I was only making point not every book in the collection was perfect, nor did I find it necessary to know more in order to pay a pedigree premium.  That's all.

 

Edited February 27, 2022 by path4play

[PDGray]

On 2/21/2022 at 2:07 PM, sfcityduck said:

If the right answer is the theory is off-base, then no "outing" is required. 

To be clear: I would not expect Heritage to "out the consignor against the consignor's wishes," especially if their hands are tied.  I would expect Heritage to be in a better position to contact the consignor than me (which was your prior suggestion) to see if the consignor wants to admit or deny my theory or maybe even present, on their own terms with their own family information at their own time, a fuller story.  So don't construe my posts as a demand for punishment of Heritage.  I am making a plea, not firing up the torches and pitchforks.  I just want to try to make sure the history is clear.  I may fail at that.

I take it from your comment that "you already have a pretty good idea of who that consignor is" and your prior comments that you agree with the theory.  If the theory is correct, there's no way Heritage gets "punished" by anyone anyways.  As I said early on, the Bob and Roger story would add value to the collection.  And it was inevitable that the full story would come out someday.  

But, I'll tell you what, since my posts are causing some confusion, there is no need for further pleas by me to Heritage and CGC.  I'll desist.

I'm happy to discuss "the OCD that drives the pursuit of the informational minutia surrounding them [pedigrees] after they are discovered."  The answer is simple, the stories add value.  And as a collector and dealer, I'm sure you (1) want to accurately know what you can about the comics you own and sell which could add value in the eyes of buyers and (2) you want to make sure that the stories told to you by other collectors or dealers which you think add value to comics you are buying are true.  Pretty simple concept:  Sellers should strive to tell accurate stories and buyers are entitled to figure out if the stories told them are accurate.

 

I would rather you not desist - please continue as I have rather enjoyed your research.  The story of Bob and Roger may/may not be the story of the Promise Collection.  It cannot, at this point, be verified one way or the other and that is fine, however, their story as well as the stories of other KIA/MIA Soldiers needs to be told.  Those Soldiers need to be remembered.

 

PDG

[Bookery]

On 2/21/2022 at 4:50 PM, MrBedrock said:

Sorry to distill your post down to this simple statement, but I think it is the crux of the issue. These two sentences cannot be proven to be true, and further my personal opinion is that equating them is actually completely false. Books of this grade coming available in this economy at this particular time would have sold for tremendous multiples even if they had been named "The Billy Parker's FACE Collection".

While certainly the extreme high grades of many Promise books will make them near-unique, and others simply have not surfaced for graded sale in years.  So yes, one can't make useful comparisons on these.  But for example... I just did a deep-dive ultra-intense research effort (ie, I went back to just last week's auction, and spent about 20 minutes perusing Promise book issues that had other recent sales in similar grade):

Clue Comics #3  (5.0)  Promise sale = $576;  only 8 months earlier a 7.0 sold for $118

Master Comics 38 (4.5)  Promise sale = $432;  just 4 months prior the same grade sold for $227

World's Finest 8 (4.0) Promise sale = $2640;  7 months prior a 4.0 sold for $500, and just 2 months prior a 4.5 sold for $700

Captain Marvel 6  (3.0)  Promise sale = $600;  one month earlier $588 got you a 7.0

Detective 165 (7.5)  Promise sale = $2160;  7 months earlier a 7.0 could be had for $660

Police Comics 104 (6.0)  Promise sale = $690;  couldn't find another recent 104, but a 102 in the same grade sold for just $92 last year.

These were literally just books I came across on the first page scroll-down.

[MrBedrock]

On 2/22/2022 at 7:58 AM, Bookery said:

While certainly the extreme high grades of many Promise books will make them near-unique, and others simply have not surfaced for graded sale in years.  So yes, one can't make useful comparisons on these.  But for example... I just did a deep-dive ultra-intense research effort (ie, I went back to just last week's auction, and spent about 20 minutes perusing Promise book issues that had other recent sales in similar grade):

Clue Comics #3  (5.0)  Promise sale = $576;  only 8 months earlier a 7.0 sold for $118

Master Comics 38 (4.5)  Promise sale = $432;  just 4 months prior the same grade sold for $227

World's Finest 8 (4.0) Promise sale = $2640;  7 months prior a 4.0 sold for $500, and just 2 months prior a 4.5 sold for $700

Captain Marvel 6  (3.0)  Promise sale = $600;  one month earlier $588 got you a 7.0

Detective 165 (7.5)  Promise sale = $2160;  7 months earlier a 7.0 could be had for $660

Police Comics 104 (6.0)  Promise sale = $690;  couldn't find another recent 104, but a 102 in the same grade sold for just $92 last year.

These were literally just books I came across on the first page scroll-down.

The market is so wacky that you or I could go through any auction from the last few weeks and show equally odd results on books that have nothing to do with any pedigree, Promise or otherwise.

[adamstrange]

On 2/22/2022 at 8:58 AM, Bookery said:

While certainly the extreme high grades of many Promise books will make them near-unique, and others simply have not surfaced for graded sale in years.  So yes, one can't make useful comparisons on these.  But for example... I just did a deep-dive ultra-intense research effort (ie, I went back to just last week's auction, and spent about 20 minutes perusing Promise book issues that had other recent sales in similar grade):

Clue Comics #3  (5.0)  Promise sale = $576;  only 8 months earlier a 7.0 sold for $118

Master Comics 38 (4.5)  Promise sale = $432;  just 4 months prior the same grade sold for $227

World's Finest 8 (4.0) Promise sale = $2640;  7 months prior a 4.0 sold for $500, and just 2 months prior a 4.5 sold for $700

Captain Marvel 6  (3.0)  Promise sale = $600;  one month earlier $588 got you a 7.0

Detective 165 (7.5)  Promise sale = $2160;  7 months earlier a 7.0 could be had for $660

Police Comics 104 (6.0)  Promise sale = $690;  couldn't find another recent 104, but a 102 in the same grade sold for just $92 last year.

These were literally just books I came across on the first page scroll-down.

I have observed a "Promise" effect to prices.  My thought is that the Promise Collection attracts bidders' attention to books they might not otherwise bid on, resulting sometimes in higher or much higher prices.  That is, if you are already educated on the quality of the Promise Coll and planning to bid on several Promise books, why not bid on a few more in the same sale?

That said, the dozens of crazy prices for the Black Cat horror collection show that it does not need to be a Promise book to set a new all-time high in this market.

[telerites]

@Bookery @MrBedrock

Tim, Richard - 

There have been a few Promises hit Ebay - no key but I thought the results were kind of interesting.  Again, not a big sample and kind of squatty books.  The Master and Pep are decent books.  Remember Ebay is now what 12% selling fee so I calculated that as well.

Pep #50 CGC 6.5 HA sale $1,020 9-6-21  Ebay Sale $1,550 12-27-21 ($1,364 for Ebay fee)

Black Diamond Western #11 CGC 9.0 HA Sale $264 11-14-21 Ebay Sale Best Offer Accepted $450 list

Action #147 CGC 5.5 HA Sale $552 11-21-21 Ebay Sale 1-26-22 $565.17 ($497.35)

Kid Colt Outlaw #5 CGC 8.5 HA Sale $840 9-6-21 Ebay Sale 2-12-22 $520.41 ($457.96)

Master #41 CGC 8.0 HA Sale $1,020 9-20-21 Ebay Sale 2-20-22 $793.56 ($698.33)

So out of all of them the Black Diamond Western may have had the largest percentage gain   Again, doesn't really say much with this limited number of resales - also HA's reach and marketing of the material had something to do with their hammer price.  The Master is a nice book with a Raboy cover and it took a big hit.  Not sure if the sellers just needed money for whatever reason or thought they would try a quick flip and failed.  

So again, meaningless but I have been interested to see how they do on the secondary market.  I only looked Ebay but know some Promises have sold or are for sale through other sites/dealers.

[Dr. Love]

On 2/22/2022 at 10:59 AM, szav said:

The primary auction is still going with hundreds of books to come too.

approximately 1600 books left

[10centcomics]

Thanks to everyone who has chimed in with all the different nuances of pedigree pricing. While we can dig for data points that support either side, I hope we can all agree that there is absolutely a bump associated with pedigree books when they are being marketed and sold by Heritage. The general frenzy around Signature Auctions with live auctioneers, prospective bidders being sent glossy catalogs, the slickly produced narrative...all these contribute to a higher hammer price than what you and I would get by listing them on eBay. 

The Promise story is an integral part of this marketing blitz. Heritage would not spend money promoting the pedigree narrative if they did not think it would result in higher hammer prices. Whereas some pedigrees are known purely known for the quality of the books, the Promise pedigree is a bit different where the central story of two brothers is a key part of its appeal (the Okajima pedigree is similar in this regard). Given all this, it would be nice to have more transparency about the story from Heritage so the community can have more confidence that no facts were fudged in order to have a more appealing narrative for higher hammer prices. Hypothetically, if it turns out that the "Promise" was never explicitly about the younger brother's comic books, wouldn't this be deceptive and unethical? 

[PDGray]

On 2/22/2022 at 12:06 PM, telerites said:

@Bookery @MrBedrock

Tim, Richard - 

There have been a few Promises hit Ebay - no key but I thought the results were kind of interesting.  Again, not a big sample and kind of squatty books.  The Master and Pep are decent books.  Remember Ebay is now what 12% selling fee so I calculated that as well.

Pep #50 CGC 6.5 HA sale $1,020 9-6-21  Ebay Sale $1,550 12-27-21 ($1,364 for Ebay fee)

Black Diamond Western #11 CGC 9.0 HA Sale $264 11-14-21 Ebay Sale Best Offer Accepted $450 list

Action #147 CGC 5.5 HA Sale $552 11-21-21 Ebay Sale 1-26-22 $565.17 ($497.35)

Kid Colt Outlaw #5 CGC 8.5 HA Sale $840 9-6-21 Ebay Sale 2-12-22 $520.41 ($457.96)

Master #41 CGC 8.0 HA Sale $1,020 9-20-21 Ebay Sale 2-20-22 $793.56 ($698.33)

So out of all of them the Black Diamond Western may have had the largest percentage gain   Again, doesn't really say much with this limited number of resales - also HA's reach and marketing of the material had something to do with their hammer price.  The Master is a nice book with a Raboy cover and it took a big hit.  Not sure if the sellers just needed money for whatever reason or thought they would try a quick flip and failed.  

So again, meaningless but I have been interested to see how they do on the secondary market.  I only looked Ebay but know some Promises have sold or are for sale through other sites/dealers.

I bought the Black Diamond Western #11.  I didn't pay the $450 for it.  I am ok with what I paid for it - even if it was a little bit of a premium - just like many others, I wanted to own a small part of the story.  Most of the other books I saw were far out of my league.

 

PDG

Edited February 22, 2022 by PDGray

[telerites]

On 2/22/2022 at 3:41 PM, PDGray said:

I bought the Black Diamond Western #11.  I didn't pay the $450 for it.  I am ok with what I paid for it - even if it was a little bit of a premium - just like many others, I wanted to own a small part of the story.  Most of the other books I saw were far out of my league.

 

PDG

You did fine with it.  I hope you know it wasn't intended to be disparaging at all.  I admit to being surprised some of the other ones slid as much as they did.  But like I said, I am sure HA's reach, target audience, first offering competition, and marketing play a big role in their realized prices.  I have bid on a few Promise books but have yet to obtain one.  Like you, my pockets are not deep and I try to find a book that fits in my collection. Congrats on the book.  

[PDGray]

On 2/22/2022 at 4:24 PM, telerites said:

You did fine with it.  I hope you know it wasn't intended to be disparaging at all.  I admit to being surprised some of the other ones slid as much as they did.  But like I said, I am sure HA's reach, target audience, first offering competition, and marketing play a big role in their realized prices.  I have bid on a few Promise books but have yet to obtain one.  Like you, my pockets are not deep and I try to find a book that fits in my collection. Congrats on the book.  

No worries at all.  I figure as long as the buyer and the seller are ok with whatever price, then it's all good.  I actually looked up what the book had sold for at auction and with the premium before I bought it.  He probably made a few bucks from the sale.  Even he admitted that he was probably only going get a meal at Taco Bell out of it.  Ha!

I am retired, so while I have a few books that are pretty pricey - most were bought when I had a little bit of money and was a whole lot younger!!  So now I pick up a few books here and there as I can.  My target lately has been to get pedigree books - I have discovered them and have a fascination with their story - just like these particular books, as most of us in this thread have discovered.

 

PDG

[jimjum12]

On 2/22/2022 at 7:52 AM, path4play said:

On 2/22/2022 at 1:43 AM, lou_fine said:

By ungraded, do you mean that they were not certified and graded by CGC, but rather simply a raw book graded by Heritage staff which is actually quite common for some of their lesser books or many of the books which they have in their Sunday/Monday weekly auctions?  

There shouldn't be an issue with this as long as the certified grades by CGC or the raw grades by the Heritage staff have hopefully taken the water stains into account when they came up with the final grade for the books.    

No issue per sea, and really apologize for taking an interesting the thread off tangent. 

I was only making point not every book in the collection was perfect, nor did I find it necessary to know more in order to pay a pedigree premium.  That's all.

Are you sure you didn't pass out a little ? ... maybe some drooling ? ... there's no shame in it, we've all done it. GOD BLESS... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[tth2]

On 2/23/2022 at 6:24 AM, telerites said:

I admit to being surprised some of the other ones slid as much as they did.

eBay is such a swamp now that many of the underbidders on Heritage (and other major auction sites) are probably not on eBay.

I'm surprised that the prices generally held up as well as they did, and in some cases even increased!

I think we'll get a more accurate sense of how the Promise books do upon resale when more come up for resale on Heritage or another major auction site.

Edited February 23, 2022 by tth2