The January 2023 HA auction starting to load up 2 2

[alexgross.com]

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/jack-kirby-and-chic-stone-journey-into-mystery-110-story-page-8-thor-original-art-marvel-1964-/a/7338-91013.s?type=lotlink--bidnotice-tracked-dailystatus

how was the price (24k) of this gorgeous kirby thor page? is this in line with the market for this sort of page? this one below was 38k, probably because it has even more dynamic and awesome panels, but i would have loved to get either one. 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/jack-kirby-and-chic-stone-the-avengers-6-story-page-9-thor-original-art-marvel-1964-/a/7338-91012.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115

 

[Michael Browning]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:45 PM, tth2 said:

Assuming his claim is true, which I seriously doubt, it's a good reminder of the old saying:  "Pigs get slaughtered."   

I got a sharp message from the seller telling me off for writing that on here, like I didn’t believe he got the offer, but I showed the email he sent me through CAF so everyone can see the proof that he did tell me he turned down an $85,000 offer — and, in that same email, offered it to me for that.

I believe (though he says wrongly and that may be the actual case) that since I had just reopened my CAF gallery with a lot of really great art he assumed I was a newbie with lots of cash that didn’t know he was trying to take advantage of my newbie-ness. I believe that was absolutely the case. I’ve been around this hobby for 25 years now and have owned a lot of MM art, including two covers, so I wasn’t as naive as he may have thought.

What’s even funnier is that he’s not a member here (that I know of), so someone on the boards ran to him and tattled on me. 😂😂😂

[Bronty]

On 1/13/2023 at 10:39 PM, tth2 said:

You expected higher?!  I was shocked by how high the price was!  

I know its a lot of money, but I see the 1-12 covers as being pretty high profile pieces, and they are almost 40 years old, and a very popular property.    It felt, to me, like the time had come for a cover like that to break 100k.  But, I guess it will be the next one and not this one.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Bronty

[Bronty]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:00 PM, alexgross.com said:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/jack-kirby-and-chic-stone-journey-into-mystery-110-story-page-8-thor-original-art-marvel-1964-/a/7338-91013.s?type=lotlink--bidnotice-tracked-dailystatus

how was the price (24k) of this gorgeous kirby thor page? is this in line with the market for this sort of page? this one below was 38k, probably because it has even more dynamic and awesome panels, but i would have loved to get either one. 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/jack-kirby-and-chic-stone-the-avengers-6-story-page-9-thor-original-art-marvel-1964-/a/7338-91012.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115

 

those are great.   for the money I would prefer the 24k over the 38k.

[glendgold]

On 1/13/2023 at 8:00 PM, alexgross.com said:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/jack-kirby-and-chic-stone-journey-into-mystery-110-story-page-8-thor-original-art-marvel-1964-/a/7338-91013.s?type=lotlink--bidnotice-tracked-dailystatus

how was the price (24k) of this gorgeous kirby thor page? is this in line with the market for this sort of page? this one below was 38k, probably because it has even more dynamic and awesome panels, but i would have loved to get either one. 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/jack-kirby-and-chic-stone-the-avengers-6-story-page-9-thor-original-art-marvel-1964-/a/7338-91012.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115

 

I thought the JIM 110 page would have gone slightly higher (28-30K-ish), as it's incredibly well drawn and has a lot of great elements. The AV 6 went around where I expected, and it's also a terrific page. 

I don't see the Kirby market as soft so much as becoming more predictable, unless the page that shows up is A level or at least A- and fresh to the market. Those seem to still overperform. The best of the DC pages in this auction were, to my eye, the Demon - the rest were pretty good but not going to blow the roof off.  I just took a swing through the archives and don't see a ton of Demon comps in the past - there were two bonkers results this year, 20 and 28K panel pages, but pretty much every other panel page HA has sold from that book has come in cheaper than the ones today. The data is, as the kids love to say on TikTok, inconcloo. 

[Nexus]

On 1/13/2023 at 1:04 PM, Bronty said:

No disrespect to the seller or the buyer or any other interested party, but man.   I feel like that is perhaps the weakest of all the covers.

We agree on this. Felt that way then, still feel the same now. Only thing weaker is the "$85K offer" claim.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Nexus

[tth2]

On 1/14/2023 at 12:35 PM, Bronty said:

I know its a lot of money, but I see the 1-12 covers as being pretty high profile pieces, and they are almost 40 years old, and a very popular property.    It felt, to me, like the time had come for a cover like that to break 100k.  But, I guess it will be the next one and not this one.

I guess I just don't rate any of the covers after #4.

[Bronty]

On 1/14/2023 at 7:35 AM, tth2 said:

I guess I just don't rate any of the covers after #4.

I hear you, the first four are the most important, but I think we gotta give some love to #10 at the very least.    Very few early covers/stories have the key villain, Shredder and it seems like the original would look great.

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Bronty

[Swartzisgod1]

On 1/14/2023 at 8:36 AM, Bronty said:

I hear you, the first four are the most important, but I think we gotta give some love to #10 at the very least.    Very few early covers/stories have the key villain, Shredder and it seems like the original would look great.

 

Outside of the issue 4 2nd print cover this is my favorite.  If anyone on the boards owns this cover please let me know because I would like to submit an offer.  

[jjonahjameson11]

On 1/14/2023 at 12:34 PM, Bill C said:

Didn't get the one piece I was really after, but I left it all on the mat so I'm good with it.

 

Not following the market closely at this point, but in this day I feel some stuff I was watching seemed to go for pretty reasonable.

A bronze age Superman cover (259) for 7.2K as an example. Not a great cover, but still. There was a whole lot 7.2K couldn't get you in this auction, and here was arguably the main superhero, in his title, in a 50 year old cover.

The Ditko JIM 83 splash at 5.7K- figured there might be a little more activity on this, even just based on the key issue it's from.

The Kane/Greene GL 58 splash at 6.6K- not with a top inker, it's the very end of the silver age, not really a memorable run from the book- still, if you technically want a SA Kane GL splash, this does hit all those marks, and has a lot of GL on the page.

 

Although not in my wheelhouse, I really liked the Morrow 1971 Zatanna panel page, but obviously others did too, and that one didn't go under the radar.

That Superman 259 cover seems as though it’s been on sale for the past 15 years, moving from one dealer/seller to the next.

the price definitely reflects its a ‘stale to market’ piece.

[PhilipB2k17]

On 1/12/2023 at 11:14 AM, Phill the Governor said:

The closest thing to comic book art that can be looked at, historically, is fine art. Much fine art over the centuries was commissioned buy a variety of people, but ultimately the relationship to commercial art and fine art, too, is often overlooked. Our comic book art was work for hire. The fine art world is also comprised by a (almost universal) 1:1 ratio of unique pieces. 

That said, 100 years from now if we're still here there is a 100% guarantee that there will be collections that were donated to museums, institutions, etc and this stuff will be, at the very least, way closer to fine art prices not the other way around. Heck, 20 years from now Spider-Man, Batman, Superman, even The Walking Dead and Star Trek are going NOWHERE. 40 years from now will there be new heroes or properties that have taken over popularity, or ones that currently exist that have been rehashed by new creative teams? Which heroes or properties (like Buck Rogers and Tarzan) will slink closer to obscurity? The cultural limelight will be taken up by others and we have 100 years of content to pull from and rehash and redraw and tell more stories of.

Superhero's and comic book characters have in some regard superseded themselves to the forefront of culture and are "worshiped" in the same way that religious icons were in past days. Look at how much some of those religious paintings and commercial pieces from centuries are still appreciated. Past culture was heavily influenced by religion (heck it still is!) but there is an undeniable element of culture that comic books and superheros have effected that is lasting- at the very least for the next hundred years.

As someone that's 32, my only worry for collecting through the rest of my life is what pieces are available within my budget now that won't be in due time - and exactly how much time is that? Looking at the historical record and gauging the effect this stuff has on culture I would feel foolish to think otherwise.

Isn’t the better comparison comic strip art? We’ve seen a wholesale collapse in relative comic strip art values after taking account gif inflation, with the exception of some particular strips. And the trend has been away from nostalgia and story content buying to pure aesthetics. PPL nowadays collect Prince Valiant because the art is amazing. Same for Raymond Flash Gordon strips or Winsor McCay strips. Will that eventually play out for Comic Art? 

[Mickey7]

Transformers: The Movie #1 cover by Perlin went for $102,000. Higher than I thought it would go, but I'm sure it hits a nostalgic sweet spot for many.

 

 

 

[Dirtcheap31]

On 1/14/2023 at 11:04 AM, PhilipB2k17 said:

Isn’t the better comparison comic strip art? We’ve seen a wholesale collapse in relative comic strip art values after taking account gif inflation, with the exception of some particular strips. And the trend has been away from nostalgia and story content buying to pure aesthetics. PPL nowadays collect Prince Valiant because the art is amazing. Same for Raymond Flash Gordon strips or Winsor McCay strips. Will that eventually play out for Comic Art? 

I don’t think so could be wrong here but some artists for comics like Frank Miller have been exhibited at the Louvre maybe some comic strip art has as well but not that I am aware of. Some comic strips do have some staying power such as peanuts but comics are known globally and I still think the market will grow as more and more people find out you can own the original pages. What I am concerned about more then the above is artists are going digital and I don’t know if this will make originals more or less valuable or have zero effect. But either way I collect what I love and display important pieces I love so the value although nice and some what important is not the primary driver. My favorite pages I wouldn’t not let go for any amount of money… well maybe not any…:)

[Phill the Governor]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:04 PM, PhilipB2k17 said:

Isn’t the better comparison comic strip art? We’ve seen a wholesale collapse in relative comic strip art values after taking account gif inflation, with the exception of some particular strips. And the trend has been away from nostalgia and story content buying to pure aesthetics. PPL nowadays collect Prince Valiant because the art is amazing. Same for Raymond Flash Gordon strips or Winsor McCay strips. Will that eventually play out for Comic Art? 

I think comic book art and comic strip art, while different, have way too much in common to separate. There are certainly differences in the markets, but for the sake of argument I'd lump them together. The only real difference is that there will be a lot of strip art that falls into obscurity, not sure if it's a higher amount relative to comic book art but I'd wager it is. Comic books characters, by and large, impact culture more than strip art characters; despite the overlap. Without new creative teams revamping properties and characters to create that content and nostalgia, all that's left is aesthetics.

[Michael Browning]

On 1/14/2023 at 12:58 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

That Superman 259 cover seems as though it’s been on sale for the past 15 years, moving from one dealer/seller to the next.

the price definitely reflects its a ‘stale to market’ piece.

I said the same thing. It seems like it’s bounced around and around and around for all of the two decades-plus that I’ve been collecting. I think that had an effect on it selling so low and I also just don’t think Cardy has the same fan base as he did back in 1996 when everyone wanted a Cardy cover and prices were soaring. This auction result was lower than some of his horror covers sell for. I’ve seen the Cardy art price decrease happening a lot more than I ever thought I would, but I also see the same thing happening to Neal Adams’ DC covers.

Edited January 14, 2023 by Michael Browning

[cloud cloddie]

The New Mutants 98 page with no New Mutants at 13+k… I get the importance of the issue, but that purchase… was a choice. 

[delekkerste]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:00 PM, alexgross.com said:

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/jack-kirby-and-chic-stone-journey-into-mystery-110-story-page-8-thor-original-art-marvel-1964-/a/7338-91013.s?type=lotlink--bidnotice-tracked-dailystatus

how was the price (24k) of this gorgeous kirby thor page? is this in line with the market for this sort of page? this one below was 38k, probably because it has even more dynamic and awesome panels, but i would have loved to get either one. 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/story-page/jack-kirby-and-chic-stone-the-avengers-6-story-page-9-thor-original-art-marvel-1964-/a/7338-91012.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Archive-ThisAuction-120115

 

I think the JIM #110 page is very good, with some very nice elements like Odin and Heimdall & Bifrost, though, I agree that the Avengers #6 page has, as you noted, "even more dynamic and awesome panels" and Stone's inks are super-tight on that page (I mean, they really, really pop) versus a bit less so on the JIM page. I think there's probably also a premium for being Avengers and early at that (plus more villains and an Iron Man cameo in panel #4). 

I expected mid-to-high $20Ks on the JIM page and high $30Ks to mid-$40Ks on the Avengers page, so, I would say both ended up on the slightly lower side of expectations, but, generally within the expected range.

Regarding the Kirby market as a whole, I wrote this to some friends yesterday:

"There's so much Kirby supply that buyers can pick and choose...the price appreciation curve has definitely flattened out a lot over the past 8-9 years vs. other top artists, which is exactly what you would expect given the relative maturity of the Kirby market vs. newer artists  A lot of [newer] top artists have probably seen their art go up 3-5x or more during that time but Kirby is probably only up 1-2x on average I'd wager during that time."

Edited January 14, 2023 by delekkerste

[Will_K]

On 1/14/2023 at 1:53 PM, Michael Browning said:

On 1/14/2023 at 12:58 PM, jjonahjameson11 said:

That Superman 259 cover seems as though it’s been on sale for the past 15 years, moving from one dealer/seller to the next.

the price definitely reflects its a ‘stale to market’ piece.

I said the same thing. It seems like it’s bounced around and around and around for all of the two decades-plus that I’ve been collecting. I think that had an effect on it selling so low and I also just don’t think Cardy has the same fan base as he did back in 1996 when everyone wanted a Cardy cover and prices were soaring. This auction result was lower than some of his horror covers sell for. I’ve seen the Cardy art price decrease happening a lot more than I ever thought I would, but I also see the same thing happening to Neal Adams’ DC covers.

I've never owned or wanted to own that cover and Nick Cardy is my favorite comic artist.  It's one of a few Cardy Superman covers that have moved around.  Unfortunately, Nick had the duty of drawing a lot of Superman covers when they were trying to "de-super" him.  His butt was getting kicked in most of the covers of that period.  A great loss is that Nick actually never drew a Superman story.

[alexgross.com]

On 1/14/2023 at 11:38 AM, delekkerste said:

I think the JIM #110 page is very good, with some very nice elements like Odin and Heimdall & Bifrost, though, I agree that the Avengers #6 page has, as you noted, the "even more dynamic and awesome panels" and Stone's inks are super-tight on that page (I mean, they really, really pop) versus a bit less so on the JIM page. I think there's probably also a premium for being Avengers and early at that (plus more villains and an Iron Man cameo in panel #4). 

I expected mid-to-high $20Ks on the JIM page and high $30Ks to mid-$40Ks on the Avengers page, so, I would say both ended up on the slightly lower side of expectations, but, generally within the expected range.

Regarding the Kirby market as a whole, I wrote this to some friends yesterday:

"There's so much Kirby supply that buyers can pick and choose...the price appreciation curve has definitely flattened out a lot over the past 8-9 years vs. other top artists, which is exactly what you would expect given the relative maturity of the Kirby market vs. newer artists  A lot of [newer] top artists have probably seen their art go up 3-5x or more during that time but Kirby is probably only up 1-2x on average I'd wager during that time."

thanks for the thoughtful and knowledgable reply, much appreciated!

[heartened]

On 1/13/2023 at 11:38 AM, buttock said:

That would be awesome if we could just put a floor on our art and let it be gospel.  I was more commenting on what I thought realistic prices would be.  What would Albert or Burkey price them at?  

Agree they went cheap relatively, but the 100K was probably accurate at the time, when that double spread went for 1.2 million.  It's hard to know where the Frankenstein plates will go in the future since they are tangential to comic art and the fan base is more limited.  I suspect they will still gradually rise but not at the rate of mainstream comic art.  If someone wanted a published plate this was a good time to grab one.  That all being said, neither were very memorable scenes in the book.