The January 2023 HA auction starting to load up 2 2

[lobrac]

On 1/12/2023 at 10:32 AM, vodou said:

What Would Jesse Marsh Do?

 

[Bronty]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:15 PM, Nexus said:

Anyone who chooses Miller Wolverine over Miller DD is a Wolverine fan more than a Miller fan.

Felix, I don’t often disagree with you but we all have our own experiences reading these books and I’m sorry but it doesn’t make me or anyone who prefers the wolverine books any less of a fan than anyone else.  

I just enjoyed the wolverine books more - on average - as a kid than the DDs…sorry if that offends you!   ;)

Some of the daredevils are amazing , don’t get me wrong - but at the same time, some of them just aren’t that compelling.    The issues before he took over the writing aren’t all that interesting, for example, except as an opportunity to watch him grow.   They are early in his career and it mostly shows although they improved quickly.   Now, I recognize that I may hold that opinion partly because the first (English language) comic I ever owned was wolverine LS #2, and I didn’t read the daredevils until much later, but the run doesn’t feel fully formed and cohesive to me.    Some brilliant parts no doubt.   But personally, it just never grabbed me the same way it may have grabbed you. 
 

[drdonaldblake1]

On 1/13/2023 at 5:15 AM, g-man said:

$432K for the XMEN 98 cover w the juice 

🤯 Wow.....and not even large images of the X-Men characters,

[Nexus]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:48 PM, Bronty said:

Felix, I don’t often disagree with you but we all have our own experiences reading these books and I’m sorry but it doesn’t make me or anyone who prefers the wolverine books any less of a fan than anyone else.  

I just enjoyed the wolverine books more - on average - as a kid than the DDs…sorry if that offends you!   ;)

Some of the daredevils are amazing , don’t get me wrong - but at the same time, some of them just aren’t that compelling.    The issues before he took over the writing aren’t all that interesting, for example, except as an opportunity to watch him grow.   They are early in his career and it mostly shows although they improved quickly.   Now, I recognize that I may hold that opinion partly because the first (English language) comic I ever owned was wolverine LS #2, and I didn’t read the daredevils until much later, but the run doesn’t feel fully formed and cohesive to me.    Some brilliant parts no doubt.   But personally, it just never grabbed me the same way it may have grabbed you. 
 

No worries, not offended.

If someone prefers the Wolverine books, that's fine. It simply says to me, though, that that person likes Wolverine as a character more than Daredevil. It's also probably means that they like Claremont's writing on WOLVERINE more than Miller's on DAREDEVIL. Which would also be fine!

But again, IMO, a preference for the Wolvie limited series over Miller's DD run is for reasons other than appreciation of Miller as a creator. Just my opinion...sorry if that offends you;)

[Unstoppablejayd]

On 1/13/2023 at 12:00 AM, drdonaldblake1 said:

🤯 Wow.....and not even large images of the X-Men characters,

I’m not sure why everyone is so surprised by this one,,, the 107 cover went for 360k almost exactly a year ago. And this 98 is earlier , a much better image…better images of the X-men and in action vs a key villian and one of the few early covers wolverine is actually on. 

[Michael Browning]

On 1/13/2023 at 12:50 AM, Unstoppablejayd said:

I’m not sure why everyone is so surprised by this one,,, the 107 cover went for 360k almost exactly a year ago. And this 98 is earlier , a much better image…better images of the X-men and in action vs a key villian and one of the few early covers wolverine is actually on. 

You’re absolutely correct. I was forgetting the 107 auction. The 98 sold right where it should have, then.

[gumbydarnit]

For me, I think the Janson inks over Miller on DD is what tips the scales in my preference of the DD run over Wolverine. Don't get me wrong, Joe Rubinstein is a fine inker, but the Miller/Janson team is hard to beat. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by gumbydarnit

[KirbyCollector]

Sellers right now

[Bronty]

On 1/13/2023 at 12:37 AM, Nexus said:

No worries, not offended.

If someone prefers the Wolverine books, that's fine. It simply says to me, though, that that person likes Wolverine as a character more than Daredevil. It's also probably means that they like Claremont's writing on WOLVERINE more than Miller's on DAREDEVIL. Which would also be fine!

But again, IMO, a preference for the Wolvie limited series over Miller's DD run is for reasons other than appreciation of Miller as a creator. Just my opinion...sorry if that offends you;)

Ehhhh.   I guess I just don’t care for the idea that if you don’t love daredevil ahead all of all else that you aren’t one of the conoscenti, as though it’s the only reasonable opinion.   Anyways, whatever, we’ll agree to disagree.    

Edited January 13, 2023 by Bronty

[inovrmihd]

On 1/12/2023 at 9:50 PM, Unstoppablejayd said:

I’m not sure why everyone is so surprised by this one,,, the 107 cover went for 360k almost exactly a year ago. And this 98 is earlier , a much better image…better images of the X-men and in action vs a key villian and one of the few early covers wolverine is actually on. 

FYI, the $360,000 figure on the 107 included the buyer's premium per Heritage's archive.  The 98 sold for $432,000 when BP is added. I agree that it is a more desirable cover, although the description did include reference to moisture damage. 

[delekkerste]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:31 PM, Brian Peck said:

And it would come down to the DD issue and who did what in terms of the artwork. While the DD Miller stories are great who drew what on what page can give you a headache figuring out. Plus some people will only buy certain pages ie if Miller just did layouts, mi=ostly Jason or size of the artwork.

I think DD #168-184, where Miller had full creative control (writing & art chores) and where Janson - his definitive inking partner - did all of the inks, and where the best of his first-run stories resides, is the highest regarded. There's definitely been more of an acceptance of the #185-190 pages over the past decade due to the recognition that Miller still largely controlled the creative process with tight layouts on separate sheets (plus the newer generation of collectors, for better or worse, often puts the image above other considerations), but, there's still definitely higher regard and prices for the #168-184 material. There are some great looking pages in the #158-167 part of the run where Roger McKenzie was the writer, but, I think Miller aficionados rightly elevate the material where he did both writing and penciling duties, as it is hard to argue that it isn't a fuller expression of his creativity at work. 

On 1/12/2023 at 8:48 PM, Michael Browning said:

I really don’t think people even care that it was Claremont who wrote the Wolverine limited series and Miller just did pencils.

I meant that, broadly, there's going to be a lot of crossover appeal from people who enjoyed Claremont's run on the X-Men from 1975 to 1991, whether they were a fan of Claremont's writing, or the many great artists who worked on the books during this time, or just enjoyed the versions/portrayal of the characters during that 17-year period. I mean, you're not going to find many Byrne/Cockrum/Paul Smith/JRJR X-Men fans/OA collectors who don't also love the Wolverine Limited Series, while I'm sure most Silvestri/Jim Lee/Kubert etc. X-fans also love it as well. 

Edited January 13, 2023 by delekkerste

[jjonahjameson11]

On 1/13/2023 at 8:31 AM, Bronty said:

Ehhhh.   I guess I just don’t care for the idea that if you don’t love daredevil ahead all of all else that you aren’t one of the conoscenti, as though it’s the only reasonable opinion.   Anyways, whatever, we’ll agree to disagree.    

I agree with what Bronty says, and furthermore, the plot (and possibly more than just the plot) was a collaborative effort between Claremont and Miller.  There is a pretty good accounting of how the idea for the Wolverine limited series came to be in one of the comics-related interview mags or possibly, one of the TwoMorrows publications.  Unfortunately, I don’t have the time to look for it now, but the Wolvie limited series was/is so much more than giving praise to Miller’s DD material.

unfortunately, I am not the most articulate person on the boards nor can I type at blazing speed (40 words per minute being the top end of my typing skills).  However, this article, for me, sums up why the Wolvie Limited series deserves more credit than Felix would care to acknowledge:

https://comicsalliance.com/wolverine-1982-mini-series-claremont-miller/
 

[delekkerste]

On 1/13/2023 at 12:50 AM, Unstoppablejayd said:

I’m not sure why everyone is so surprised by this one,,, the 107 cover went for 360k almost exactly a year ago. And this 98 is earlier , a much better image…better images of the X-men and in action vs a key villian and one of the few early covers wolverine is actually on. 

I agree, Jason. I know there is a huge mental block to accept some of these outsized prices, but, they make sense - relatively speaking at least - when you look at what the rest of the OA market has done.

When $20K pages and covers are now $60K pages and covers, and $50K pieces are now $125-150K pieces, you simply can't expect the covers that used to be $150-250K to still be at that level. No, they will not have tripled in price, because the % price appreciation curve flattens out at higher prices, but, it makes perfect sense that a lot of these pieces are now $300K-something and $400K-something items. 

$432K for the X-Men #98 cover is probably about 20% more than I was expecting, but, it wasn't 50-100% more. We can argue about whether the absolute level of prices in the market makes sense, but, relatively speaking, a cover like this has to have a 3 or 4-handle in front of it given that many (far) lesser pieces are now routinely hitting the lower 6-figure levels.

Edited January 13, 2023 by delekkerste

[Unstoppablejayd]

On 1/13/2023 at 8:45 AM, inovrmihd said:

FYI, the $360,000 figure on the 107 included the buyer's premium per Heritage's archive.  The 98 sold for $432,000 when BP is added. I agree that it is a more desirable cover, although the description did include reference to moisture damage. 

Yup- I am aware,., so 20% more a year later for a better cover both visually and content wise makes perfect sense. 

[delekkerste]

On 1/13/2023 at 9:16 AM, jjonahjameson11 said:

I agree with what Bronty says, and furthermore, the plot (and possibly more than just the plot) was a collaborative effort between Claremont and Miller.  There is a pretty good accounting of how the idea for the Wolverine limited series came to be in one of the comics-related interview mags or possibly, one of the TwoMorrows publications.  Unfortunately, I don’t have the time to look for it now, but the Wolvie limited series was/is so much more than giving praise to Miller’s DD material.

unfortunately, I am not the most articulate person on the boards nor can I type at blazing speed (40 words per minute being the top end of my typing skills).  However, this article, for me, sums up why the Wolvie Limited series deserves more credit than Felix would care to acknowledge:

https://comicsalliance.com/wolverine-1982-mini-series-claremont-miller/
 

I think the Wolverine Limited Series is important. But Miller's Daredevil run is Important with a capital I. It's what put Miller on the map and is crucial to his legacy as one of the top comics creators of all-time. No one is denying that Miller contributed significantly to his collaboration with Claremont, but, he controlled the creative process fully with Daredevil, established his relationship with his definitive artistic partner (Janson) there, and basically became FRANK MILLER as a result of his first run on that series. 

No, Daredevil is not Wolverine. But Miller Daredevil is a higher expression of Miller's talents than his work on Wolverine, as great as the latter is. And it is great - I have long defended his work on Wolverine when certain parties were trying to downplay his contribution to the series in the past. And I can fully understand and appreciate that many will like the Wolverine Limited Series more than the Miller Daredevil run - Wolverine in Japan with ninjas...you guys all know that there are few people on the entire planet who appreciate that combination more than I do.  

But Miller's Daredevil run is simply more important to both comic history and Miller's oeuvre and legacy than Wolverine is. It's his Les Demoiselles d'Avignon, DKR is his Guernica, and everything else is not either one of those two even though people will have other favorites.  

Edited January 13, 2023 by delekkerste

[Bronty]

On 1/13/2023 at 9:50 AM, delekkerste said:

I think the Wolverine Limited Series is important. But Miller's Daredevil run is Important with a capital I. It's what put Miller on the map and is crucial to his legacy as one of the top comics creators of all-time. No one is denying that Miller didn't contribute significantly to his collaboration with Claremont, but, he controlled the creative process fully with Daredevil, established his relationship with his definitive artistic partner (Janson) there, and basically became FRANK MILLER as a result of his first run on that series. 

No, Daredevil is not Wolverine. But Miller Daredevil is a higher expression of Miller's talents than his work on Wolverine, as great as the latter is. And it is great - I have long defended his work on Wolverine when certain parties were trying to downplay his contribution to the series in the past. And I can fully understand and appreciate that many will like the Wolverine Limited Series more than the Miller Daredevil run - Wolverine in Japan with ninjas...you guys all know that there are few people on the entire planet who appreciate that combination more than I do.  

But Miller's Daredevil run is simply more important to both comic history and Miller's oeuvre and legacy than Wolverine is. It's his Les Demoiselles d'Avignon, DKR is his Guernica, and everything else is not either one of those two even though people will have other favorites.  

I can appreciate that point of view and I do think that the fact it was his coming out party, his splash into the comic world, is part of the reason for the reverence for the series.      I totally understand that, *particulary* for those who were reading them off the stands and watching a bright new talent emerge.   At the end of the day though, what are art and stories for?   To move us, to compel us, to inspire us in some way, no?    I can understand the reverence for the DD run because of its place in comics history while just not being as interested (in at least part of the run) as other works.    To take that idea to its extreme limit, I can understand the place in history of Famous Funnies 1, but that doesn't make it very compelling to me.

At the end of the day they are both great works, and what are we really talking about here?   Relative values and whether they make sense given what we know about both series.    I think there are plenty of reasons for the wolverine pages to be worth just as much or more as the DD pages.

Edited January 13, 2023 by Bronty

[tth2]

On 1/13/2023 at 1:00 PM, drdonaldblake1 said:

On 1/13/2023 at 2:15 AM, g-man said:

$432K for the XMEN 98 cover w the juice 

🤯 Wow.....and not even large images of the X-Men characters

It's one of the most iconic covers from the Cockrum run.

[tth2]

On 1/13/2023 at 9:28 PM, KirbyCollector said:

Sellers right now

OA once again demonstrates that it's immune to financial downturns.

[tth2]

On 1/13/2023 at 6:36 AM, Bronty said:

You're right; Wolverine is A+ or A++ or whatever the highest grade possible is.

Then "Snickt" is A+++++++++++++++++++.

[tth2]

The Bama Doc Savage cover painting went for $38k, less than I expected.

Sandman pages continue to soar, with the page from #4 going for $48k. It'll be interesting to see how the page from #14, from the Cereal Collectors Convention from the "Doll's House" arc, does in today's auction given that the arc featured so prominently in the new Netflix series (not that Sandman collectors needed a TV show to remind them what a great arc that was).