THE AMAZING FANTASY #15 CLUB 39 39

[comicquant]

1 hour ago, Jaydogrules said:

The boards, possibly.  

"The market"?

That's highly debatable.

-J.

Aside from GAtor literally being the last person I'd challenge on anything to do with this market, I'm surprised PQ's importance is even considered debatable.  From what I have seen and experienced PQ is an inherent factor in the decision making process of a purchase.  Personally, I seek WH pages and will pay a premium for them.  I won't presume everyone feels this way, but think its common sense as it speaks to the preservation of a book.        

[G.A.tor]

I'm done with the discussion. You again, miss the point entirely of what I'm saying. I would clarify again, but clearly you can't see pass your bias to actually understand what I'm saying. 

Done. 

[fishbone]

The only reason I wasn't yet quite done with this thread is because the Rick's and the Roy's were still trying to bring expertise and insight to a very interesting topic. I must say, if guys like that are out, I may not tune in here anymore either , although I love all the AF15 discussion. It's just getting a bit frustrating now...... reminds me of a certain Mitch a little while ago in  seemingly every Gold thread............

Edited March 30, 2017 by fishbone

[Spiderphill]

Here, I have a new debate: 

My copy is a 3.0, previous owner had color touch removed, hence its paper loss. It's back cover is flawless and PQ is solid. When I sell will I get high end or low end of the 3.0 range. 

[Bomber-Bob]

38 minutes ago, G.A.tor said:

I'm done with the discussion. You again, miss the point entirely of what I'm saying. I would clarify again, but clearly you can't see pass your bias to actually understand what I'm saying. 

Done. 

 

25 minutes ago, fishbone said:

The only reason I wasn't yet quite done with this thread is because the Rick's and the Roy's were still trying to bring expertise and insight to a very interesting topic. I must say, if guys like that are out, I may not tune in here anymore either , although I love all the AF15 discussion. It's just getting a bit frustrating now...... reminds me of a certain Mitch a little while ago in every seemingly every Gold thread............

This thread has deteriorated to the point where there is nothing of relevance, no real content. The fact that Jaydog is now here arguing about the irrelevance of PQ is perhaps the final straw.  Sad.

[Bomber-Bob]

5 minutes ago, Spiderphill said:

Here, I have a new debate: 

My copy is a 3.0, previous owner had color touch removed, hence its paper loss. It's back cover is flawless and PQ is solid. When I sell will I get high end or low end of the 3.0 range. 

Solid book. Personally, if given a choice, I would prefer the crease to Marvel chipping and I like the PQ. I would say you would get above average though not necessarily a record high.

[Jaydogrules]

8 minutes ago, Bomber-Bob said:

 

This thread has deteriorated to the point where there is nothing of relevance, no real content. The fact that Jaydog is now here arguing about the irrelevance of PQ is perhaps the final straw.  Sad.

Yes I agree that it is sad that dissenting opinions that are nonetheless backed up and supported by numerous recent publicly available data points are grounds for shutting a whole thread down.  

-J.

[r100comics]

Any time a cr/ow book has enough additional qualities to make it sell high, there are people that would have paid more for that same book if it had White Pages.

[Jaydogrules]

10 minutes ago, r100comics said:

Any time a cr/ow book has enough additional qualities to make it sell high, there are people that would have paid more for that same book if it had White Pages.

Poppycock.  

That's nothing but blind speculation.  

-J.

 

[namisgr]

12 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

Poppycock.  

That's nothing but blind speculation.  

-J.

 

No, its arithmetic.

 

If, say, 30% of the collecting community is willing to pay more for a particular issue with exceptional page quality than an otherwise comparable comic with inferior page quality, and

 

None of the collecting community is willing to pay more for that particular issue with inferior page quality than an otherwise comparable comic with exceptional page quality, then

 

on average, the copy with exceptional page quality will sell for more than the otherwise-comparable one with inferior page quality.

 

Speculation is what fuels denial of this fundamental mathematics of the marketplace.  That the real world experience of seasoned major dealers bears out the conclusion reached from the math adds to the speculative and, some would say, foolish nature of the denials.

Edited March 30, 2017 by namisgr

[Jaydogrules]

4 minutes ago, namisgr said:

No, its arithmetic.

 

If, say, 30% of the collecting community is willing to pay more for a particular issue with exceptional page quality than an otherwise comparable comic with inferior page quality, and

 

None of the collecting community is willing to pay more for that particular issue with inferior page quality than an otherwise comparable comic with exceptional page quality, then

 

on average, the copy with exceptional page quality will sell for more than the one with inferior page quality.

 

Speculation is what fuels denial of this fundamental mathematics of the marketplace.

No.  

Because books with "white pages" on the label have often sold for LESS than other books.  This is a fact.  This isn't speculation.  It is a FACT. 

So your "arithmetic" doesn't add up. 

And once again, you pick a poor time to continue to advance this utterly defeated position, when still more recent public sales data points continue to thoroughly undermine everything you are saying.

-J.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Jaydogrules

[namisgr]

17 minutes ago, Jaydogrules said:

No.  

Because books with "white pages" on the label have often sold for LESS than other books.  

-J.

'Otherwise comparable'.  Until you understand what that means in terms of varying factors contributing to desirability, such as upgrade potential, chipping, and the like, and the additional variability that come from different venues selling books at different times through different mechanisms, you'll continue to deny and be baffled.  That there is the occasional example of a white paged copy of an issue selling for less than a cream-to-off white copy of the same issue is irrelevant to the comparison of books that are 'otherwise comparable' and the mathematics of averaging bunches of sale prices.

 

The arithmetic of the average sale price is irrefutable, and is substantiated by real world dealer experience.

Edited March 30, 2017 by namisgr

[Jaydogrules]

13 minutes ago, namisgr said:

'Otherwise comparable'.  Until you understand what that means in terms of other factors contributing to desirability, such as upgrade potential, chipping, and the like, and the variables that come from different venues selling books at different times through different mechanisms, you'll continue to deny and be baffled.  That there is the scattered example of a white paged copy of an issue selling for less than a cream-to-off white copy of the same issue is irrelevant to the comparison of books that are 'otherwise comparable' and the mathematics of averaging.

 

The arithmetic of the average sale price is irrefutable, and is substantiated by real world dealer experience.

Well one thing I'm sure we can both agree on is the mathematics of the recent sellers of all of these beautifully "inferior" copies as they laugh all the way to the bank with their multiple GPA shattering realized prices in these public auctions.   

-J.

[peewee22]

2 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

No.  

Because books with "white pages" on the label have often sold for LESS than other books.  This is a fact.  This isn't speculation.  It is a FACT. 

So your "arithmetic" doesn't add up. 

And once again, you pick a poor time to continue to advance this utterly defeated position, when still more recent public sales data points continue to thoroughly undermine everything you are saying.

-J.

Jay Dog, were you collecting in the 70s and 80s? It was pretty much a rule of thumb in the hobby that premium books with white pages would bring 1.5-2x guide (maybe more). Even before labels started. Is this poppycock?

PQ has always been important to the hobby.

Edited March 30, 2017 by peewee22

[lou_fine]

7 hours ago, G.A.tor said:

8 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

Clearly not for everyone.... 

-J.

Not everyone for sure. But as presented on these boards and in the market...the majority of folks

Well, I guess there's always at least one exception to every rule.   

[Jaydogrules]

58 minutes ago, peewee22 said:

Jay Dog, were you collecting in the 70s and 80s? It was pretty much a rule of thumb in the hobby that premium books with white pages would bring 1.5-2x guide (maybe more). Even before labels started. Is this poppycock?

PQ has always been important to the hobby.

I was not.  I want not even a wee pup then.  I am familiar with the old OWL cards.   I suppose no one really uses those anymore.  I don't know how relevant Overstreet is anymore either. I do believe dealers used to use "the Guide" as a means of hosing naive collectors into taking low ball fractions of their collections' true value whilst also using it to get the most from those same books when it came time to sell.  Guess that's just how business works, can't blame someone for trying to make a living.  

I also think the internet changed all that. Information became readily available to practically anyone at anytime.  To the point where the significance of a published-once-a-year book became essentially obsolete. To the point where practically any collector could become a dealer at any time, and then a collector again.  To the point where larger audiences of people had access to data, practically in real time, so that they can decide on what a book is "worth" based simply on a scan and a label, with said information then becoming instantaneously available for public consumption.  The words and assurances of an LCS owner became a distant second to the digital records of the likes of eBay, GPA, and gocollect.  Now we can all see for ourselves.  Thanks to CGC, comic books became commoditized, and we no longer get to experience for ourselves the sights and smells of these relics, hold them in our hands, peruse the same pages that have been enjoyed who knows how many times by how many other custodians in its history before.  

Now they're just pictures within pieces of plastic. 

So naturally there has been a shift.  A shift to "eye appeal".  Brightness of colour.  Centering, etc.  Purely visual assessments of books, most of which have little to nothing to do with how CGC calculates a structural grade.  We also look at the label.  Some people put more stock into a label than others.  More than they should maybe sometimes.  So we are told to "buy the book and not the grade".  Sound advice to most, yet when that clearly happens, and results buck the trend of what the traditional or "old school" collectors expect, a cognitive dissonance occurs and we get discussions such as these, where it is very easy to point to the publicly available data and say "see, look here, this is what's happening".  But after 30, 40, 50 years of collecting, this may be hard to accept, or believe.  And yet still there it is. They will try to rationalize that data, tell you that the reasons they "think" it is the way it is, make very persuasive statements cloaked within their decades of experience.  However it is the last 10 years or so that has changed everything, so this experience they speak from is, all due respect because I consider most of them fabulous friends and businessmen, but it is dated experience.  I do believe they all mean well and that they are coming from a place of good and sincere intention.  But things have changed.  The comic book buying experience simply is not the same as it was before.  When I point these things out, when I say "hey guys, let's look at these sales, they aren't necessarily saying what you are saying or necessarily reflective of your past personal experiences" it's not a knock on anybody by me either.  I can see what's happening in "the market" with my own two eyes.  I'm going to point it out.  The old school guys should see what's going on now, just as much as the newer collectors should be made privy to what was going on then.  Things change.   But without what happened before now, we wouldn't be where we are now.

-J.

[namisgr]

What a pompous parade of pablum.

[drbanner]

LOL, does anyone really think a white-paged copy of a book won't sell for more than an off-white paged copy of the same book, all else being equal? 

 

[SC22]

.

Edited April 1, 2017 by SupergirlDC19591

[Bomber-Bob]

6 hours ago, Jaydogrules said:

Poppycock.  

That's nothing but blind speculation.  

-J.

 

Jaydog, are you simply dismissing all the dealers and collectors on these Boards telling you that PQ matters ? Do we not exist in your world ? Also, look at the WTB thread and more often than not the request specifies a minimum PQ, often White. I don't see anybody jumping on your bandwagon and backing you with your claims. What is your agenda, why do you care that many of us like a solid PQ, why do you ruin so many threads ???? I also hope you realize that your constant use of the HaHa emoticon is very irritating. You are not showing your fellow Board members respect by laughing at them.