New Action #1 CGC 8.0 and New Detective Comics #27 CGC 8.5 in the Census 4 4

[Mr bla bla]

On 8/8/2021 at 10:00 AM, lou_fine said:

Looks like you might have missed all of the discussion we had on this very topic back on Page 3 of this very thread here.  

The max charge cap was indeed only $3K way back in the day before being bumped up to $5K several years ago.  With the latest price increase as of the end of April, the cap has now been removed and the max charge is now simply 3% of the estimated value of the book in question.  

BTW:  If I remember correctly, that $60K fee was for a book valued at $2M.  So, not very many books would be paying this kind of fee.  But if it did qualify, the real charge would probably be more like over $100K because with the way books are currently being graded, it could cost you very dearly if you dare to have a book graded without it being pre-screened for pressing at a minimum.  So, if it did go through both the pressing and grading process, you would now be looking at $120K (i.e. $60K or thereabouts for pressing and another $60K for grading) to have the book certified on the first go round.    

Like I had pointed out, much more expensive than the 2.6% with a max cap of $2,600 for members or 2.75% with a max cap of only $2,750 per book for slabbing their high end books with the other guys across the street.  So, I totally agree with you that no way in heck will CGC be waving that fee because they feel that their brand is strong enough that submittors will continue to pay this huge difference for their label.  

Looks like Volde has also removed his max cap. Lol ...

[Mr bla bla]

On 8/8/2021 at 10:00 AM, lou_fine said:

Looks like you might have missed all of the discussion we had on this very topic back on Page 3 of this very thread here.  

The max charge cap was indeed only $3K way back in the day before being bumped up to $5K several years ago.  With the latest price increase as of the end of April, the cap has now been removed and the max charge is now simply 3% of the estimated value of the book in question.  

BTW:  If I remember correctly, that $60K fee was for a book valued at $2M.  So, not very many books would be paying this kind of fee.  But if it did qualify, the real charge would probably be more like over $100K because with the way books are currently being graded, it could cost you very dearly if you dare to have a book graded without it being pre-screened for pressing at a minimum.  So, if it did go through both the pressing and grading process, you would now be looking at $120K (i.e. $60K or thereabouts for pressing and another $60K for grading) to have the book certified on the first go round.    

Like I had pointed out, much more expensive than the 2.6% with a max cap of $2,600 for members or 2.75% with a max cap of only $2,750 per book for slabbing their high end books with the other guys across the street.  So, I totally agree with you that no way in heck will CGC be waving that fee because they feel that their brand is strong enough that submittors will continue to pay this huge difference for their label.  

Even if I was rich which i am not. Even filthy rich and i owned the church action 1. If i had to pay someone 120 K to get my book graded, i would probably never escape the feeling of having been utterly and completely ripped off.

[marmat]

Maybe it is possible to negotiate the grading fees for mega keys. 

I don't know, maybe 10k a pop

[Mmehdy]

On 8/8/2021 at 2:14 AM, Mr bla bla said:

Looks like Volde has also removed his max cap. Lol ...

must of been reading this thread...

[lou_fine]

On 8/8/2021 at 10:13 AM, Mmehdy said:

On 8/8/2021 at 2:14 AM, Mr bla bla said:

Looks like Volde has also removed his max cap. Lol ...

must of been reading this thread...

Not sure if I am reading this Main Page from their website properly or not, since I have not yet ever submitted any of my books for grading to date, but as far as I can tell, the max cap at either $2,600 for members or $2,750 for non-members still seems to be there for same day service with no value limit:    

https://www.cbcscomics.com/grading-pressing-price

I haven't gone in any further to see if it's actualy been removed once you move further along into their online submission process.  

[jimjum12]

On 8/8/2021 at 4:21 AM, lou_fine said:

Well, it's quite clear to me that the owner of this 8.0 Action 1 and Church Tec 1 was quite sober and at the top of his game as he manaed to get his books through while the $5K max cap was still in place.  

Defintely not totally drunk or zonked out on a bender thinking that CGC will be knocking on his door with wads of cash to give to him for the privilege of grading his books for him.    

It's probably a LOT easier to get ironclad insurance with a slab, rank, and serial number. GOD BLESS....

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[rob_react]

I should bubble this up, since I danced around this earlier and didn't spell it out. That way I see it, the idea of removing the cap has nothing to do with soaking collectors (although it has that side-effect.) To me it's about using the dominant market position to take some easy $$ out of the auction houses. If I was selling an as-yet-ungraded $5,000,000 book I would say, up-front, the auction house can eat the grading fees.  And they'd say, "Sure! Please just give us your book! We'll fly to you, drive the book to Florida and make your dreams come true!" Those are the folks that are actively looking for the trophies.

And even lower down the totem pole where you might have less leverage to make the auction house eat the fees, it's not like you'd be out of pocket for the grading fees. They'll just end up as a line item on your invoice. The consigners of the Promise Collection didn't have to pony up $1,000,000 before Heritage would take the books.

I do wonder what the deal looks like between Heritage and CGC. What does their FMV percentage look like?

[Mmehdy]

On 8/8/2021 at 11:29 AM, rob_react said:

I should bubble this up, since I danced around this earlier and didn't spell it out. That way I see it, the idea of removing the cap has nothing to do with soaking collectors (although it has that side-effect.) To me it's about using the dominant market position to take some easy $$ out of the auction houses. If I was selling an as-yet-ungraded $5,000,000 book I would say, up-front, the auction house can eat the grading fees.  And they'd say, "Sure! Please just give us your book! We'll fly to you, drive the book to Florida and make your dreams come true!" Those are the folks that are actively looking for the trophies.

And even lower down the totem pole where you might have less leverage to make the auction house eat the fees, it's not like you'd be out of pocket for the grading fees. They'll just end up as a line item on your invoice. The consigners of the Promise Collection didn't have to pony up $1,000,000 before Heritage would take the books.

I do wonder what the deal looks like between Heritage and CGC. What does their FMV percentage look like?

With over say 4500 of the 5000 plus books you know they worked out some form of deal, I know when CGC was first started Jim/HA had some ownership stock interest or something like that, I am sure that if there is still a ownership connection either price or priority grading helps. If you own the auction house, and you bid on items like Jim did and win a ton them such that he had his own website to sell those, you are bidding where some of the auction fees are going to ownership which fine in Texas , but it gives them a little edge price wise. Also any company would probably discount for a very large order or submission so its business as usual. Of course the auction houses like the fact that the cost of say a high grade action 1 is 100K at CGC...it puts them in the driver seat to get that consignment. Win Win for everybody, the cosigner with higher sales price, CGC and auction house get increased fees also...such a perfect world...

Edited August 8, 2021 by Mmehdy

[RareHighGrade]

On 8/8/2021 at 11:29 AM, rob_react said:

I should bubble this up, since I danced around this earlier and didn't spell it out. That way I see it, the idea of removing the cap has nothing to do with soaking collectors (although it has that side-effect.) To me it's about using the dominant market position to take some easy $$ out of the auction houses. If I was selling an as-yet-ungraded $5,000,000 book I would say, up-front, the auction house can eat the grading fees.  And they'd say, "Sure! Please just give us your book! We'll fly to you, drive the book to Florida and make your dreams come true!" Those are the folks that are actively looking for the trophies.

And even lower down the totem pole where you might have less leverage to make the auction house eat the fees, it's not like you'd be out of pocket for the grading fees. They'll just end up as a line item on your invoice. The consigners of the Promise Collection didn't have to pony up $1,000,000 before Heritage would take the books.

I do wonder what the deal looks like between Heritage and CGC. What does their FMV percentage look like?

Can anyone confirm whether Heritage or any other auction house has covered the grading fee for a submitter?  I didn't realize that was possible.

[LordRahl]

Let me see if I can sum this up real quick.

a) some big books got graded recently

b) future state - (according to one guy who has never submitted a multimillion dollar book) CGC is going to pay the submitter for the privilege of grading his multimillion dollar book

c) future state - (according to another guy who has never submitted a multimillion dollar book) CGC is going to charge $120K for grading a multimillion dollar book

Did I get that more or less correct?

[lou_fine]

On 8/8/2021 at 11:29 AM, rob_react said:

And even lower down the totem pole where you might have less leverage to make the auction house eat the fees, it's not like you'd be out of pocket for the grading fees. They'll just end up as a line item on your invoice. The consigners of the Promise Collection didn't have to pony up $1,000,000 before Heritage would take the books.

 

On 8/8/2021 at 1:53 PM, RareHighGrade said:

Can anyone confirm whether Heritage or any other auction house has covered the grading fee for a submitter?  I didn't realize that was possible.

As far as I am aware, no consignors to any of the big 3 comic book auction houses would ever have to pay upfront to cover grading fees.  They all would be more than happy to cover your up front grading/pressing costs and then simply deduct it back out as a line item on the payment owing to you just to get your books. 

Now, as to agreeing to go one big step further and cover your grading fees enntirely so that you do not have to pay for them in the end at all, now that would be a completely different story.  I imagine it would be based upon how good your negotiation skills and the quality of your books are.  I imagine Heritage would have a lot more leeway to play here in terms of agreeing to waive your grading fees, but then not letting you know that they will not agree to give you back as much in terms of your BP and SP.  I just don't see Heritage agreeing to waive these egregious new higher fees without getting something back in return. 

It's probably like the old styple haggling when you go to the car lot to buy a car.  Sure, they'll give you a much better price on your used car, but then also give you a much smaller discount on your new car.  Probably a case of six or one half dozen of the other here.  

Edited August 8, 2021 by lou_fine

[LordRahl]

On 8/8/2021 at 1:53 PM, RareHighGrade said:

Can anyone confirm whether Heritage or any other auction house has covered the grading fee for a submitter?  I didn't realize that was possible.

I can't confirm as I've never been in this position... unfortunately... however if you are giving an auction house tens of millions of dollars worth of consignments as the promise collection owners did, I imagine everything is negotiable, including grading fees.

[rob_react]

I'm talking about the biggest of the big books. If you had a $5,000,000 book with Heritage and you didn't lose the seller's commission and grading fees right off the top, you're not trying hard enough. "ComicConnect doesn't have a buyer's premium. I'll save 20% over there." The reality is, with some material you can make up the difference with Heritage. They're really good at what they do. With a world record book? eBay set a world record. It doesn't matter where you sell something like that, really. ComicConnect would do just fine with material like that and you're going to do much better there than you would at Heritage without negotiating.  

I've heard that some people have clawed money out of the buyer's premium for some consignments.

Again, I'm talking Detective #27 Church copy level. If you're selling a world record book, you should act like it! In the fine art world people negotiate guarantees that ignore the hammer price entirely.  If you've got the best of the best, that's the model you should be aiming for with the auction houses. 

[lou_fine]

On 8/8/2021 at 2:15 PM, LordRahl said:

Let me see if I can sum this up real quick.

a) some big books got graded recently

b) future submittor's dream state - (according to one guy who has never submitted a multimillion dollar book) CGC is going to pay the submitter for the privilege of grading his multimillion dollar book

c) future current state after April 28, 2021 - (according to another guy who has never submitted a multimillion dollar book) CCS/CGC is going to charge $120K for pressing and grading and  a multimillion dollar book (i.e. assuming a book with an estimated valued of $2M charged at 3% for pressing and another 3% for grading)

Did I get that more or less correct?

Pretty close, but not quite right and as a result, please note the corrections which I have made for you above.  

[rob_react]

Sotheby’s Suffers Losses on Guaranteed Prices - The New York Times

Sotheby's took a bath on guarantees. They're not a bunch of rubes. It's not as common as it once was, when it was a major tool to gain consignments, but for the best of the best- this is the way you should be approaching these places. They live on high quality consignments. 

[LordRahl]

On 8/8/2021 at 2:37 PM, lou_fine said:

Pretty close, but not quite right and as a result, please note the corrections which I have made for you above.  

I have to admit of the two very extreme scenarios presented, yours is the more realistic one however I think the chances of anyone paying $120K to get a $2M book graded are pretty close to zero. Even if it's simply because there are many more options for pressing than CCS. CGC may be the only legitimate option for getting a $2M book graded but CCS does not hold a similar distinction on the pressing side.

[LordRahl]

On 8/8/2021 at 1:00 AM, lou_fine said:

Looks like you might have missed all of the discussion we had on this very topic back on Page 3 of this very thread here.  

The max charge cap was indeed only $3K way back in the day before being bumped up to $5K several years ago.  With the latest price increase as of the end of April, the cap has now been removed and the max charge is now simply 3% of the estimated value of the book in question.  

BTW:  If I remember correctly, that $60K fee was for a book valued at $2M.  So, not very many books would be paying this kind of fee.  But if it did qualify, the real charge would probably be more like over $100K because with the way books are currently being graded, it could cost you very dearly if you dare to have a book graded without it being pre-screened for pressing at a minimum.  So, if it did go through both the pressing and grading process, you would now be looking at $120K (i.e. $60K or thereabouts for pressing and another $60K for grading) to have the book certified on the first go round.    

Like I had pointed out, much more expensive than the 2.6% with a max cap of $2,600 for members or 2.75% with a max cap of only $2,750 per book for slabbing their high end books with the other guys across the street.  So, I totally agree with you that no way in heck will CGC be waving that fee because they feel that their brand is strong enough that submittors will continue to pay this huge difference for their label.  

I would think at least part of this would be insurance related, no? Don't get me wrong, I'm not naive and I'm sure it's mostly just good old capitalism however with the comic market exploding over the last year and given CGC's massive backlog on TAT's, their liability must be massive. They must be holding 10's of thousands of books in their facility if not 100's of thousands. The value of those books given current market conditions has to be in the 100's of millions. What's the insurance bill on a few hundred million dollars of collectibles?

If the CGC facility were to be destroyed, improbable but not impossible, they're on the hook for a huge bill. Prior to Backstone purchasing them, they'd just go out of business and good luck suing them to recover but now there is a much bigger entity with a lot more money to go after.

[rob_react]

Good point. They're in Florida. I don't know what the facility looks like but there's a lot of potential for natural disasters in Florida. Even if the facility isn't flattened, water damage is a big issue for paper collectibles.  Having gone through a merger recently (one big investment manager buying a slightly less big investment manager) there was a lot of discussion about risk, right off the bat. This would certainly be a topic of conversation. I still think it's more in the lines of an "easy win" for CGC, milking auction houses. 

Edited August 8, 2021 by rob_react

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

On 8/8/2021 at 5:27 PM, LordRahl said:

If the CGC facility were to be destroyed, improbable but not impossible

They're in Florida. I don't know what the facility looks like but there's a lot of potential for natural disasters in Florida

 

 

Hey @G.A.tor. Thoughts?

Edited August 8, 2021 by GreatCaesarsGhost

[adamstrange]

On 8/8/2021 at 4:53 PM, RareHighGrade said:

Can anyone confirm whether Heritage or any other auction house has covered the grading fee for a submitter?  I didn't realize that was possible.

Yes.  Heritage, with respect to the McLaughlin collection back in 2006.  The comics were sold at the direction of the court as part of the disposition of his estate, and the judge refused to authorize grading fees.  Since there were 600 or so Church books in the collection, Heritage slabbed a small portion to maximize their revenue.