DOCTOR STRANGE IN THE MULTIVERSE OF MADNESS spooky & mystical spoiler thread 4 4

[apollobuzz]

On 5/6/2022 at 9:09 PM, Jayman said:

Just saw it tonight and thought the same thing. Although Wong had some memory of its contents, perhaps other do too. Maybe it can be re-written. 

It was only all the Darkhold "copies" that were destroyed (and one earth's hidden location with the original runes or whatever), right?  If that is correct, then the book could be re-written by visiting and transcribing from the original site on another universe.  

[Rip]

LOVED, I mean LOVED Zombie Strange.

The musical fight was also amazing!

Those two sequences alone were worth the price of admission.

Raimi really brought it here. Our family had a great time.

[Jayman]

On 5/7/2022 at 9:33 PM, Rip said:

LOVED, I mean LOVED Zombie Strange.

The musical fight was also amazing!

Those two sequences alone were worth the price of admission.

Raimi really brought it here. Our family had a great time.

Even the way Zombie Strange rose from the grave was so “Evil Dead”!

I also liked the “traveling through dimensions” sequence with America and Strange. Very creative!

[William-James88]

On 5/7/2022 at 6:37 AM, chrisco37 said:

 I also found Rachel McAdam’s mole very distracting.  

 

Not proud to say it, but I did too.

And, to the other comments, I too loved Zombie strange. Raimi was firing on all cylinders at that moment.

It's really cool how the trailer scenes were in the film but in totally different circumstances than I would gave guessed.

Edited May 8, 2022 by William-James88

[Jemin]

On 5/7/2022 at 8:33 PM, Rip said:

The musical fight was also amazing!

I agree. That was a favorite scene in the theater I was at.  While I didn't pay a whole lot of attention to everyone around us as I like to be in the movie, there were lots of excited reactions in my theater to that scene as well as most of the movie.

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

Indeed there was at the prescreen I went too, reactions to the music. What it reminded me of was the Potter and Beasts movies. A little too on the nose for me, but I noticed "others" in the theater enjoyed it. I recently saw the Fantastic Beasts prescreen and I am a little over the top on "magic". 

This movie wasn't all bad, some of the plot back and forth was jarring, like "oh ya now back to this."

Again I've seen no streaming service shows, but the plot still wasn't lost on me; although, this thread points out there was still "more to the story that I'd be oblivious of if not for the thread."

So there is that too  

[drotto]

It was Ok.  Middle of the road Marvel for me.  I found the tonal shifts from the almost campy Dr Strange dominated scenes, to the almost horror inspired SW scenes jarring.  At times it was almost as if two totally different movies had been spliced together.  I very much enjoyed when the film pushed into those darker scenes.  I would have loved if they really had committed and made it a horror movie infused with magic, and left the camp out.  It would have been novel for the MCU, and would have really fit the darker themes of Wanda's story well.

 

I 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by drotto

[bronze_rules]

Loved it.  I was unfortunately 10 or 15 minutes late. Could anyone explain if they recapped any of Wanda's backstory from the show?

I think that is the single biggest problem and it put my nephew to sleep. He and his girlfriend were asking questions like who the heck are those kids, and why should we care? And who's that old man in the hot dog stand they keep showing. What the heck is the relevance?

I loved seeing the illuminati, but my gripe was how easily they were bested. I know they had only a few minutes, but that was kind of annoying. They made Wanda close to a Dark Phoenix level character, similar to what they did with Ms. Marvel. And for her to so easily take out Ms. Marvel and Prof. Xavier was a bit fantastic.

I thought America Chavez was ok. She was important for the story.  I don't know much about her, but having her suddenly take out Wanda so easily, was again a bit fantastic. 

The scenes in the sewer reminded me of the issue of Dr. Strange where he and Wanda had to find the darkhold in the sewers beneath avengers mansion, before Dracula could get to it. Wonder if that issue shot up.

I only wish it was longer. 

 

I don't see the movie generating spider-man level money, because it's way to scary for kids. A huge plus for us adults, But I could see kids getting scared like I did with the original Evil Dead.

 

 

Edited May 8, 2022 by bronze_rules

[lordbyroncomics]

On 5/2/2022 at 1:37 PM, Bosco685 said:

Monica Rambeau

The First Female Captain Marvel (until Mark Gruenwald and Ralph Macchio decided to fire Roger Stern because he refused to devalue her and remove her as leader of the Avengers then proceeded to make her incompetent and strip away her powers)

 

- fixed that 

*- but I'm only clarifying Monica Rambeau; this variant of Captain Marvel is her mother from the first CM film

Edited May 8, 2022 by wisbyron

[bronze_rules]

On 5/6/2022 at 4:54 AM, theCapraAegagrus said:

That's true. I thought it was dumb as hell, but if you need to kill Black Bolt I guess that's how you do it.

Oh, and the fact that Black Bolt was in this was f***ing amazing.

My thinking is on a technical level, if Black Bolt's body can absorb the sound waves he emits in close proximity, he must have some kind of built in protection that could withstand a nuclear bomb. Fail for me on that.

[drotto]

On 5/7/2022 at 11:10 PM, bronze_rules said:

Loved it.  I was unfortunately 10 or 15 minutes late. Could anyone explain if they recapped any of Wanda's backstory from the show? A few passing lines and references,  but really nothing in depth.  If you did not watch WV you would very generally get the idea, but that is all.

I think that is the single biggest problem and it put my nephew to sleep. He and his girlfriend were asking questions like who the heck are those kids, and why should we care? And who's that old man in the hot dog stand they keep showing. What the heck is the relevance? My son had a similar issue.  He did not watch WV and said he got the idea, but there were many holes. I somehow feel this movie basically repeated Wanda's character arc from WV.  In many respects it negated WV.

I loved seeing the illuminati, but my gripe was how easily they were bested. I know they had only a few minutes, but that was kind of annoying. They made Wanda close to a Dark Phoenix level character, similar to what they did with Ms. Marvel. And for her to so easily take out Ms. Marvel and Prof. Xavier was a bit fantastic. Yes, she is becoming overpowered. 

I thought America Chavez was ok. She was important for the story.  I don't know much about her, but having her suddenly take out Wanda so easily, was again a bit fantastic. Typical Mary Sue character in the making, also the girl that is the key to everything trope. She was more of a plot device then a character.

The scenes in the sewer reminded me of the issue of Dr. Strange where he and Wanda had to find the darkhold in the sewers beneath avengers mansion, before Dracula could get to it. Wonder if that issue shot up. I though these were some of the best sequences int he movie and wish the overall film had pushed into this territory more aggressively. 

I only wish it was longer. 

 

 

Hope that helps.  Sorry if my opinions are a bit pointed.

Edited May 8, 2022 by drotto

[fantastic_four]

Just saw it.  I like the first Strange movie better, but it was OK.  There's plenty I'm still mulling over though.

Wanda and Pietro are from Sokovia and have Eastern European accents.  In Wandavision she never has the accent in Westview, but when she leaves Westview she does have the accent.  Where was her Sokovian accent in this film?

[fantastic_four]

Is Wanda dead now?

I don't know what to make of them making Shuma-Gorath a throwaway monster summoned by Wanda.  I had been hoping he would be the big bad, but giving him a minor role like this seems to ensure he'll never get significant screen time in the MCU.  

[TupennyConan]

I haven't seen it yet. 

Why would Disney spend $70B for FOX only to introduce Reed & Xavier to their immediate deaths in the service of DS2? I know they're variants but who's going to care now once they bring them back in more fully?

Too bad there wasn't an Iron Man variant for Wanda to kill but they'd never do that to precious Stark. 

[piper]

Did anyone recognize the statue during the fight between the Illuminati and Wanda?

I also liked the use of the British Museum.

[drotto]

This may be an unpopular oppinion, but this movie destroyed any chance of Wanda ever being a true hero and fully redeemable character in the MCU again.  In fact, she may the the second most evil character behind Thanos.

 

This was done by basically repeating the same character arc twice,   but amplifying it to an extrem the second time around. In both cases, we have a understandably emotionally unstable woman that has had any chance of her ideal life destroyed, she then very selfishly manipulates and kills others to achieve that dream.  Both times we are then asked as an audience to forgive her despite the killing and little show of remorse, just because she is hurting really badly.

 

In WandaVison she clearly manipulates, hurts, and even kills people so she can manufacture her lost ideal life.  At the end Monica, who is ment to be a stand in for the audience, asks us to forgive her because she understands her feelings, her motivations were sympathetic, and she is at her core good. She releases her saying she is still the hero we know. She forgives her.

 

Then several months later Wanda immediately violates that forgiveness granted by Monica (and also Dr Strang and by extension the Avengers), and proceeds to do basically the same selfish thing again, for the same reasons.  This time the killings are massively higher, and the threat is too the entire universe not just one town. They then try to create a false moral equivalency with Strange, and because she chooses not to destroy everything and kills herself (presumably), we are again asked to forgive her.

 

But, how can we forgive a character that has now violated our trust twice, threatened innocents, and killed dozens of people? Wanda as a hero is ruined. 

[Bird]

I don't think that we were asked to forgive her. She was the villain, yes. She isn't coming back as a hero in the movies. She died a mass murdering villain.

Why did you feel they were going for forgiveness? I was surprised they killed her at the end (no body though) but it fits the story, no redemption just a little understanding.

[drotto]

On 5/8/2022 at 8:56 AM, Bird said:

I don't think that we were asked to forgive her. She was the villain, yes. She isn't coming back as a hero in the movies. She died a mass murdering villain.

Why did you feel they were going for forgiveness? I was surprised they killed her at the end (no body though) but it fits the story, no redemption just a little understanding.

Two reasons

 

1. We were told basically outright in WV by Monica that she is forgiven, who in that setting is an audience stand in.  She then has her mental breakdown as the false world is being erased.  This breakdown is ment to be her emotional release, but also make the audience feel sorry for her and ignor her actions.  She also defeated the villian Agatha.

 

2. She again essentially defeats the villan by reversing everything that happens, then killing herself.  Again her final actions are shown as heroic, and we are ment to have nostalgia for her being a hero. She ultimately does the right thing, her emotions were understandable or at least sympathetic, therefor by doing the right thing,  she is asking for forgiveness. Based on her past history, and poorly explained turn to evil (especially for those who did not watch WV), she is shown as dying as a hero having realizing and attoned for her sins.

[Axelrod]

On 5/8/2022 at 8:47 AM, drotto said:

This may be an unpopular oppinion, but this movie destroyed any chance of Wanda ever being a true hero and fully redeemable character in the MCU again.  In fact, she may the the second most evil character behind Thanos.

 

This was done by basically repeating the same character arc twice,   but amplifying it to an extrem the second time around. In both cases, we have a understandably emotionally unstable woman that has had any chance of her ideal life destroyed, she then very selfishly manipulates and kills others to achieve that dream.  Both times we are then asked as an audience to forgive her despite the killing and little show of remorse, just because she is hurting really badly.

 

In WandaVison she clearly manipulates, hurts, and even kills people so she can manufacture her lost ideal life.  At the end Monica, who is ment to be a stand in for the audience, asks us to forgive her because she understands her feelings, her motivations were sympathetic, and she is at her core good. She releases her saying she is still the hero we know. She forgives her.

 

Then several months later Wanda immediately violates that forgiveness granted by Monica (and also Dr Strang and by extension the Avengers), and proceeds to do basically the same selfish thing again, for the same reasons.  This time the killings are massively higher, and the threat is too the entire universe not just one town. They then try to create a false moral equivalency with Strange, and because she chooses not to destroy everything and kills herself (presumably), we are again asked to forgive her.

 

But, how can we forgive a character that has now violated our trust twice, threatened innocents, and killed dozens of people? Wanda as a hero is ruined. 

It's an interesting point, to me, that a lot of people just do. not. like. when we - as an audience - are seemingly asked to sympathize or understand a character who has done terrible, even evil things.  They flip out and get angry.  This person did terrible things!  I am not going to feel sorry for them!  I don't want to "understand" them!  You (movie makers) shouldn't even be trying to make me!  

Not saying that is you, specifically, but I get a sense of that here that you feel like we as an audience are being asked to forgive her and still think of her as a redeemed hero at the end, but you reject that, and moreover, feel like everyone should reject that.  

Also, I am not saying that this movie nailed it as far as making Wanda's motivations credible - far from it, in fact - but I don't reject the ideas behind them.  

[drotto]

On 5/8/2022 at 9:41 AM, Axelrod said:

It's an interesting point, to me, that a lot of people just do. not. like. when we - as an audience - are seemingly asked to sympathize or understand a character who has done terrible, even evil things.  They flip out and get angry.  This person did terrible things!  I am not going to feel sorry for them!  I don't want to "understand" them!  You (movie makers) shouldn't even be trying to make me!  

Not saying that is you, specifically, but I get a sense of that here that you feel like we as an audience are being asked to forgive her and still think of her as a redeemed hero at the end, but you reject that, and moreover, feel like everyone should reject that.  

Also, I am not saying that this movie nailed it as far as making Wanda's motivations credible - far from it, in fact - but I don't reject the ideas behind them.  

It may be that so some degree, but also Wanda had become one of my favorite characters in the MCU. Her turn to evil is not very well justified (in either WV or DS2), so it ends up lessening the character. I also see it it part of a growing trend that Disney is in the process of killing or replacing the vast majority of original MCU characters at this point, except for Spider-Man, Dr Strange, and Captain Marvel.  Instead they are attempting to replace them with characters I am far less invested in, and have much weaker fan bases and histories then the characters that are now "gone".  From a comic book reader standpoint, they are being replaced by much less popular and newer characters.  In addition, they are characters that have struggled to carry books on their own.

 

Iron Man = dead, being replaced by Riri Williams

Thor = New Thor (Portman)

Hulk = She Hulk (she does have a solid fan base unlike many of the others)

Hawkeye = Kate Bishop

Black Widow = dead and replaced by Yelena

Captain America = Sam Wilson (some fan base)

Wanda = dead and Evil

Vision = dead and now White Vision (will we even see him brough back)

Black Panther = very unfortunate circumstances, but will be replaced

 

I really think this strategy is going to hurt the MCU from both a story and monetary standpoint, until the X-Men and FF are really introduced.