ASM #252 CGC 9.8 Record Sale - something fishy going on? - Holder Tampering Incident confirmed by CGC 50 50

[LordRahl]

On 4/26/2024 at 7:23 AM, shadroch said:

A dishonest seller doesn't have to fool the CGC, just the general public.

Which is of course no different than how things worked prior to CGC. A dishonest seller only needed to fool the poor sod buying his trimmed/ct'd/glued/married cover book, not "the CGC". I still have my CT'd Phantom Lady 15 that was purchased from "a reputable dealer" 25+ years ago when I didn't know what to look for whereas to someone like the guy I bought it from, it would have been obvious that it was CT'd. It's obvious to me now, but I've gained a lot of experience in 25+ years. I will never sell that book, just keep it as a reminder of the "good ol days".

[Panda2]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:48 AM, CGC Mike said:

We expect to start making payments for claims very soon. Unfortunately, due to the nature of this issue, this process has taken significantly longer than we ever would have imagined, but we are almost there. We recognize your frustration and sincerely apologize for the delays. We can assure you that we are doing everything we can to make everyone impacted by this incident whole, as quickly as possible. 

Thanks Mike!

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 4/26/2024 at 12:55 PM, LordRahl said:

On 4/26/2024 at 9:23 AM, shadroch said:

A dishonest seller doesn't have to fool the CGC, just the general public.

Which is of course no different than how things worked prior to CGC. A dishonest seller only needed to fool the poor sod buying his trimmed/ct'd/glued/married cover book, not "the CGC". I still have my CT'd Phantom Lady 15 that was purchased from "a reputable dealer" 25+ years ago when I didn't know what to look for whereas to someone like the guy I bought it from, it would have been obvious that it was CT'd. It's obvious to me now, but I've gained a lot of experience in 25+ years. I will never sell that book, just keep it as a reminder of the "good ol days".

All very true.

As the day looms with the ongoing eighth year of the new slabs, benefit of the doubt given to the overly cautious.

I remember being mystified back in 2016 or 2017 by a red labeled case of a key, that I posted here that was picked up by a boardie rather instead of simply answering yay or nay on legit. I think as a poor college student I was budgeting overly cautious as well, so water under the bridge. I would have bought it then asked otherwise.

Edited April 26 by ADAMANTIUM

[shadroch]

On 4/26/2024 at 10:55 AM, LordRahl said:

Which is of course no different than how things worked prior to CGC. A dishonest seller only needed to fool the poor sod buying his trimmed/ct'd/glued/married cover book, not "the CGC". I still have my CT'd Phantom Lady 15 that was purchased from "a reputable dealer" 25+ years ago when I didn't know what to look for whereas to someone like the guy I bought it from, it would have been obvious that it was CT'd. It's obvious to me now, but I've gained a lot of experience in 25+ years. I will never sell that book, just keep it as a reminder of the "good ol days".

That is true, but the last couple of CGC books I sold at a show were bought by people who never took them out of the protective mylar. They saw they were CGC-graded and went with them. 

[paqart]

On 4/26/2024 at 1:48 PM, LordRahl said:

Lol. OK, well all you're showing us is a very thin piece of paper slipped through... which as others have said is normal. It's one thing to slide in a single piece of paper and an entirely different thing to slide in or out a 1/4" thick book in an inner well. So, go ahead and slide the book half way out and take a pic of that if as you say the comic will slide out if picked up by the top two corners. BTW, I'm in the camp that this slab doesn't look tampered with and everything you've taken pictures of to show that it is, is normal. Like the label being on the outside... ummm... they were ALL on the outside at that point in CGC's life. 

Since it opens almost 1/4", I have no problem beliieving I could slide the book out. However, I got a refund, so I didn't want to do something like that. In any event, if this is normal, then to hell with slabs. My opinion, this was open enough that a) I couldn't trust the comic in the slab was the comic on the label, and b) even if it was, the damaged slab allowed moisture damage, meaning the comic inside was no longer a legit 8.0. Either way, the slab is meaningless or worse, because it makes it difficult to inspect the comic and allows damage or tampering. Actually, I have to thank you gents for your remarks, because they've made me much more sour on the idea of buying slabs than I was this morning when I shipped it back to the seller.

[paqart]

On 4/26/2024 at 9:37 AM, ADAMANTIUM said:

 

I still don't doubt you but there is no photographic proof that a corner has popped.

@Pitboss I forget but was the label attached to the inner mylar with these slabs? I see his label could be warped,  which could be to storing conditions or in transit? I still thought the label was sealed in the mylar with the comic.

All that is fact based, but to further say, I don't see you sneaking the comic out and replacing it with just "that" photographic proof of "case 'open'ness".

 

It's tough to show without holding it open, but when I held it from the top, the bottom was hanging open. Also, the comic was sliding all over inside. When it arrived, part of the inner mylar seemed to cross over into the label area. When it's lying flat, the top comes down thanks to gravity, but since it was broken, I thought people who are used to seeing these thing (I'm not) would know what to look for. The fact that none of the commenters can tell that it's popped tells me that this is a form of broken corner that you haven't trained yourself to see. I was very tempted to slide the comic out, which absolutely could have been done with the gap involved, but thanks to your earlier admonition about not making it any worse, I didn't. Also, it's pretty clear the comic had significant moisture damage. Whether that is because of the broken corner or it's a different comic doesn't matter to me, it isn't a CGC 8.0 now, nor was it when it was shipped.

This was it for me, I'm avoiding slabs (not just CGC) from now on, particularly GA. If I find something I want and it happens to be in a slab, it's coming out and staying out. Also, I am not trusting the grade. As far as I'm concerned, I'm back to the old days of haggling about the grade, except slabbed comics get an automatic deduction because the interior can't be inspected.

Edited April 26 by paqart

[grendel013]

On 4/26/2024 at 5:43 PM, paqart said:

It's tough to show without holding it open, but when I held it from the top, the bottom was hanging open. Also, the comic was sliding all over inside. When it arrived, part of the inner mylar seemed to cross over into the label area. When it's lying flat, the top comes down thanks to gravity, but since it was broken, I thought people who are used to seeing these thing (I'm not) would know what to look for. The fact that none of the commenters can tell that it's popped tells me that this is a form of broken corner that you haven't trained yourself to see. I was very tempted to slide the comic out, which absolutely could have been done with the gap involved, but thanks to your earlier admonition about not making it any worse, I didn't. Also, it's pretty clear the comic had significant moisture damage. Whether that is because of the broken corner or it's a different comic doesn't matter to me, it isn't a CGC 8.0 now, nor was it when it was shipped.

This was it for me, I'm avoiding slabs (not just CGC) from now on, particularly GA. If I find something I want and it happens to be in a slab, it's coming out and staying out. Also, I am not trusting the grade. As far as I'm concerned, I'm back to the old days of haggling about the grade, except slabbed comics get an automatic deduction because the interior can't be inspected.

You can see the wavy label in the original pix on eBay. If you think it was swapped why not reach out to Ozark? In his description he mentions that the book was never cleaned and pressed. It was "purchased from an older gentleman who did not believe in it."

Maybe it's just me, but if I thought I was scammed I'd be relentless in finding the person who pulled off the scam.

[Sweet Lou 14]

On 4/26/2024 at 12:13 AM, paqart said:

I see. I've never seen a case like this before. I took my better shots just now, here they are. You can see that it would be easy to slip the comic out. At least, I think you can see it in the photo where the strip of paper is slipped in from the corner.

 

I would humbly submit that unless you can show the paper sliding between the two halves of the holder spanning an entire edge (say, the bottom edge), you haven't proven that the book could be slipped out.  There's no way to get the book out through the opening shown in this one photo above.

[paqart]

On 4/26/2024 at 7:14 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

I would humbly submit that unless you can show the paper sliding between the two halves of the holder spanning an entire edge (say, the bottom edge), you haven't proven that the book could be slipped out.  There's no way to get the book out through the opening shown in this one photo above.

I'm sorry I didn't slide it up farther then. It seemed to me this was good enough to be a proof of concept. After all, if the corner is detached (it is) and it isn't sealed on the edges, then it can be lifted all the way to the corners. But that's fine, because you can't see it. I could feel a little flex about halfway up, which would have risked cracking if I'd gone further, though the plastic was separated up to the corners. It's just that the gap was widest at the bottom, and wide enough at the middles to slide the mylar out with a bit of care.

In any event, the opinion that counts here is mine when it comes to my buying decisions, and I'm not buying more slabs after this. Ironically, if not for the comments on this board, I would have been happy to buy more, and assumed this one experience was an aberration. Instead, you and others have convinced me that this kind of thing is not only common, but dealers who sell these don't think it is a big deal. That is what has decided me. If I had known it to begin with, I never would have started buying slabs in the first place.

So, I'm still in the market for a CMA 51 in VF+, raw only.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 4/26/2024 at 7:01 PM, paqart said:

I'm sorry I didn't slide it up farther then. It seemed to me this was good enough to be a proof of concept. After all, if the corner is detached (it is) and it isn't sealed on the edges, then it can be lifted all the way to the corners. But that's fine, because you can't see it. I could feel a little flex about halfway up, which would have risked cracking if I'd gone further, though the plastic was separated up to the corners. It's just that the gap was widest at the bottom, and wide enough at the middles to slide the mylar out with a bit of care.

In any event, the opinion that counts here is mine when it comes to my buying decisions, and I'm not buying more slabs after this. Ironically, if not for the comments on this board, I would have been happy to buy more, and assumed this one experience was an aberration. Instead, you and others have convinced me that this kind of thing is not only common, but dealers who sell these don't think it is a big deal. That is what has decided me. If I had known it to begin with, I never would have started buying slabs in the first place.

So, I'm still in the market for a CMA 51 in VF+, raw only.

Dude that's not what we said at all, but I'm happy to let you have the last word. We said this is a popped case in need of reholder. Which is tamper evident as you yourself can tell, which goes to prove the case served it's purpose.

No one said cracked cases were commonly sold. We refuted that it was swapped, you admitted to failing to prove it was swapped, and yet still say a whole lot between your lines of reasons (that we didn't say.)

Do you!

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 4/25/2024 at 6:00 PM, paqart said:

I think I just bought a comic with a tampered holder, possibly with a switched comic inside. I don't think it is related to the ZaneGlor incident, but I am posting here as an example of holder tampering. The case has obviously been opened and the label looks screwy. Here are some (bad) photos. I'll take better ones later. The registration number matches, but there isn't a photo, so that doesn't tell me anything.

 

On 4/25/2024 at 6:35 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

For comparison...

I just discovered lighting features on my tablet for dimmer viewing what a difference, but makes this seem an ill comparison, I'd rather paqart have proof, but best "I" can do 😂 

Strength in numbers, maybe others will chime in!

 

On 4/25/2024 at 6:42 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I'm also not seeing "obvious signs of tampering"

 

On 4/25/2024 at 6:48 PM, paqart said:

The case is literally open on the bottom left corner. The entire comic can be slipped out.

 

On 4/25/2024 at 7:10 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I believe you, however that doesn't mean tampering all the same, so no worries.

Just means an older case that needs reholdering, as everything else checks out.

This was our exchange. I shouldn't have taken you at your word that the case was popped.

No where did I say it is a regular sale.

I believed you that it was popped, all I said the rest looks normal, so it isn't a "swapped book!"

You're tying up this thread, with understandable concerns. Everyone tried to give you honest information.

If you don't like the old slabs but do like the new? Yet your gone forever? Drama

Case looks fine, show know proof of popped corner? We say it's a reholder same as it would be for new cases? You say gone forever and blame us, get outta hyear.

We believe you that the case is popped but we say ok and repeat that it's a reholder problem? You continue to lambaste and accuse us of confirming your conclusions. That is deluge, but happy you got what satisfies your stance.

More power to you, I don't control you nor seek to, but don't put words in our mouths go somewhere and flat out say the CGC boards convinced you, that isnt what we said at all.

Happy collecting.

 

Edited April 27 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

I wonder if he has ever had to reholder?

Your conclusions make me exasperated. I'm free to draw my own too, 😜 

Edited April 27 by ADAMANTIUM

[paqart]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:40 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

 

 

 

 

This was our exchange. I shouldn't have taken you at your word that the case was popped.

No where did I say it is a regular sale.

I believed you that it was popped, all I said the rest looks normal, so it isn't a "swapped book!"

You're tying up this thread, with understandable concerns. Everyone tried to give you honest information.

If you don't like the old slabs but do like the new? Yet your gone forever? Drama

Case looks fine, show know proof of popped corner? We say it's a reholder same as it would be for new cases? You say gone forever and blame us, get outta hyear.

We believe you that the case is popped but we say ok and repeat that it's a reholder problem? You continue to lambaste and accuse us of confirming your conclusions. That is deluge, but happy you got what satisoes your stance.

More power to you, I don't control you nor seek to, but don't put words in our mouths go somewhere and flat out say the CGC boards convinced you, that isnt what we said at all.

Happy collecting.

 

It's hard to read through some of your typos, but I get the gist. You have convinced me it is a "popped" older slab. Meaning, the exterior thin label at the top is normal, the wavy inner label is normal, as is the pale gray color of the grade. You have also somewhat convinced me that an open corner is normal.

What you have also convinced me of is that because these are apparently normal, there is no way I want to be buying these from dealers who agree with you about this. By "this", I mean the open corner and any related damage. That would mean I could expect to run into more slabs like this, where the CGC grade may or may not bear a close relationship to the comic inside. This one for instance, clearly had moisture damage that likely postdated the grade, possibly due to the open corner.

I'd rather just buy what looks good to me, but I can't tell what that is if I can't open the book.

And this gets back to the holder tampering that started this thread. Admittedly, that's what I thought I had in my hands when I unpacked the CMA 51 because the comic is not an off-white 8.0 with moisture damage and yellow pages, but the idea of an untrustworthy CGC grade is related. Frankly, I find the apparent normality of open corners much more worrying than Zaneglor, because Zaneglor is more predictable and likely smaller scale. 

Edited April 27 by paqart
Clarification

[shadroch]

Bilbo Baggins put it best:  "Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean there isn't a balrog in my woodpile"

[paqart]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:45 PM, ADAMANTIUM said:

I wonder if he has ever had to reholder?

Your conclusions make me exasperated. I'm free to draw my own too, 😜 

No. Closest was when CGC damaged a comic and offered to reholder for free. I figured it wasn't worth it, so I didn't send it in. In that case, the holder was fine, but the comic's cover was detached. I wrote it off as a dead loss.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 4/26/2024 at 7:50 PM, paqart said:

It's hard to read through some of your typos, but I get the gist. You have convinced me it is a "popped" older slab. Meaning, the exterior thin label at the top is normal, the wavy inner label is normal, as is the pale gray color of the grade. You have also somewhat convinced me that an open corner is normal.

What you have also convinced me of is that because these are apparently normal, there is no way I want to be buying these from dealers who agree with you about this. That would mean I could expect to run into more slabs like this, where the CGC grade may or may not bear a close relationship to the comic inside. This one for instance, clearly had moisture damage that likely postdated the grade, possibly due to the open corner.

I'd rather just buy what looks good to me, but I can't tell what that is if I can't open the book.

And this gets back to the holder tampering that started this thread. Admittedly, that's what I thought I had in my hands when I unpacked the CMA 51, but the idea of an untrustworthy CGC grade is related. Frankly, I find the apparent normality of open corners much more worrying than Zaneglor, because Zaneglor is more predictable and likely smaller scale. 

The corner separation is NOT normal. No one said it was. A case shouldn't look to be able to be swapped with the old slabs, we never said that it was "normal.

You never proved the corner was separated so no one stuck in that argument long.

The label rippling is not "common" but "can happen", which it is still cause for reholder.

The label on top coming off is "normal in the fact" that it is easy to start a peal and somehow get dislodged, which is cause for a reholder back then as well, although truly most could "live with that!" Not normal though, the 2nd generation like you have there wasused for mostly 16 years and could be looked at as similar to modern newton rings. Some people cared about the label on top, some didn't as the cert is still sealed.

Yes when they made the current generation they bolded the print and color of labels to become more readable. 

Here look at a 1st generation slab, it was worse in the beginning, these 16 year long labels were good enough for everyone at the time, but you're too "good for them?" Having been spoiled by the current generation, I get that, but that all sounds like an over reaction tbh

Edited April 27 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:02 PM, paqart said:

No. Closest was when CGC damaged a comic and offered to reholder for free. I figured it wasn't worth it, so I didn't send it in. In that case, the holder was fine, but the comic's cover was detached. I wrote it off as a dead loss.

If you haven't run into damaged slabs, I'm sure you will in the future. Sorry I wasn't clear at first about everything that was a cause for a reholder.

The bolded print and color is only in the newest gen slabs. They only put the top glue label within the case on the newest generation.

The wavy label might be because of the pop corner letting in a lot of air or moisture like you said. I "now" don't blame your return, if it truly showed up like that and not from you testing boundaries like it almost sounded like you did. So pardon our French.

Pardon our mess that yours might end up as a new popular opinion with now eight years of people being spoiled with new cases. When you come and white flag wave that 16 years of slabs and money flying all needs to be reholdered to the newest case or " because you say so or you're leaving the hobby?" You hear how that is exasperating, correct

Edited April 27 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

Idk why I'm going into this.

1st generation such as these most likely rumored to not be pressed, some buy to crack them out TO press, some just take that rumor and pay a premium for the older label.

@paqart all these things have niches and you're able to understand, just it might not mean much to you at this point. Broad statements don't always help detailed conclusions, so my bad. Lord willing you can learn the reholder submission and it may be used to your advantage (as others have) 

But If you do like the current cases better? It should be obvious to you which those are! So collect how you like.

But we will as well, unfortunately as yours might become a prevailing opinion due to being unlearned of the "past?" God forbid 16 years of labels get so scarce that we're all forced to reholder

Just thinking out loud here, I had made broad statements but I'm not sure this thread is the one to tie up.

Taking a break 💔 

Edited April 27 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 4/26/2024 at 12:13 AM, Pitboss said:

Looks just fine to me. I prefer older slabs myself so I have tons of them. Maybe corner popped in transit?

Here is his microscope camera of, what looks to me as a round peg in a hole secure, am I daft? Looks intact?

Edited April 27 by ADAMANTIUM

[grendel013]

On 4/26/2024 at 8:01 PM, paqart said:

So, I'm still in the market for a CMA 51 in VF+, raw only.

Maybe you'd prefer this one.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/186249480649?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=onloWYbvT7e&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=88CMRdsEROS&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY